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MY21 charging speed

15K views 51 replies 16 participants last post by  AndyP 
#1 ·
Yesterday I had the opportunity to test a brand new HPC charging station Enel X has installed in Rome some 5 km from my home. It's made of 4 Tritium 350kw charger so it's very like a Ionity station. I arrived with 20% Soc (I know, I should got there with a lower SOC for a more extended test) and charged up to 91% with a MY21. Ambient temperature 20°C, initial battery temperature around 31°C. Following are the data coming from charger display and from OBD2 (l started logging not from the beginning of the charge so a little part of the initial chargin session is missing from OBD2 data).

OBD2 data
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Charger data
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In this last graph I also added manually the most common chargin curve for MY19/20. I know that sometime it could better than that but at least in my experience that is the most common curving charge I experienced at Ionity stations.

As Tesla Bjorn reported already in a video, the MY21 initial charging curve is faster (his was a little bit worse I guess due much lower temprature in Norway :D ) up to 40%. Thne 40 - 45% the curves are the same but from there onwards the MY19/20 is alwyaws faster. Not a lot faster but it is noticeably faster. As you can see the MY21 has fixed current steps that are limiting the charging speed while MY19/20 are more gradual in the max power shaping.
That being said, it's very nice to see a peak of 110kw, finally :mrgreen:
Total charging time I guess it's not going to be much different at least if pushing the MY21 above 80% SoC. I also guess that when using 50kw chargers MY19/20 will be faster as MY21 drops below "full 50kw speed" earlier and consistently.
 

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#2 ·
MY21charging in real world terms is not much of an upgrade then, I guess! Ease of charging at superchargers and speed of charging is where Tesla trumps other manufacturers!
Do you have data comparing AC charging. ie. 11KW on MY21 vs 7KW on older models?
Btw, what OBD adapter and what software do you use?
 
#3 ·
GSIpace said:
MY21charging in real world terms is not much of an upgrade then, I guess! Ease of charging at superchargers and speed of charging is where Tesla trumps other manufacturers!
Do you have data comparing AC charging. ie. 11KW on MY21 vs 7KW on older models?
Btw, what OBD adapter and what software do you use?
I had the new car since 3 weeks now but most of the time it has been impossible to drive due to Covid restrictions in Italy. I only charged once at a 11kw AC charger and the difference was evident compared to my previous MY20. But I have to say that this is due mainly to the fact that 3 phase charger in Italy do deliver 11kw while when used in a monophase manner they do not always deliver 32A but rather 20A. So basically the big difference I saw is partially due to the AC charger rather than to the car itself.

I'm using Oblink LX OBD adapter, but cheaper ones are fine as well. Torque Pro on Android is your best friend as soft. But you have to read the threads on PID and Canbus to understand what and how to look for. Dernotte and Maxwell have done most of the job in discovering and understanding the different Pids behavior and we all need to thank them.
 
#4 ·
Thanks a lot for the charging diagrams. I think the max charging number is rather irrelevant, as long as it only applies for very specific circumstances AND a very short amount of time. In combination with the high consumption we have a low "km/mi per hour" charging speed when traveling long distances. I have a (rare) use case where my travel time will increase by 4 hours or 50% due to charging stops. Rather disappointing, but I knew what I would get into.

As to AC charging, what I regularly saw was 10.5 kW (in sub-zero °C ) at the charger, WattCat reported 8.5 to 9.5 kW (due to battery heating, I would think) - but I do not know whether WattCat reports the correct numbers ( as we all know the JLR API is fickle).

If the I-Pace stays with the upcoming JLR model lineup, it will need to get a major upgrade battery-wise to stay competitive.
 
#5 ·
I will try another charge from close to zero SoC. As I said those chargers are close to my home so it should not too difficult to get there well below 10% with a minimum of planning. I'm really curious to see the overall picture in order to understand if there is some gain in charging from nearly zero to 80%.
We'll be very far from e-Trons in any case.
 
#6 ·
Great Job ... thanks for sharing 👍

The MY19 and MY20 are charging at 100kw using the hazard light trick... works fine for me and other guys here in Germany.
If you compare the charging curves including the 100kw at the beginning, the older MY appear to be noticeable faster in charging 🤔

Jaguar will not give a charging speed improvement then as mentioned last year by some insiders ....

In my case, it is the only issue of the i-Pace... Charging extremely slow ... the car itself is extremely good and can stand a comparison to Porsche Taycan... but when it comes to charging, it sucks ....
 
#7 ·
kermit68 said:
GSIpace said:
MY21charging in real world terms is not much of an upgrade then, I guess! Ease of charging at superchargers and speed of charging is where Tesla trumps other manufacturers!
Do you have data comparing AC charging. ie. 11KW on MY21 vs 7KW on older models?
Btw, what OBD adapter and what software do you use?
I had the new car since 3 weeks now but most of the time it has been impossible to drive due to Covid restrictions in Italy. I only charged once at a 11kw AC charger and the difference was evident compared to my previous MY20. But I have to say that this is due mainly to the fact that 3 phase charger in Italy do deliver 11kw while when used in a monophase manner they do not always deliver 32A but rather 20A. So basically the big difference I saw is partially due to the AC charger rather than to the car itself.

I'm using Oblink LX OBD adapter, but cheaper ones are fine as well. Torque Pro on Android is your best friend as soft. But you have to read the threads on PID and Canbus to understand what and how to look for. Dernotte and Maxwell have done most of the job in discovering and understanding the different Pids behavior and we all need to thank them.
Any chance you could give a tutorial how to set up the pids in that app?
I would like to see battery temp but I have no clue about the pid and coding things.
 
#8 ·
EEV320 said:
Any chance you could give a tutorial how to set up the pids in that app?
I would like to see battery temp but I have no clue about the pid and coding things.
No problem, we're stuck at home for Ester vacation due to Covid so time is not an issue. Let me setup a starter kit and by tonight I'll post it ;)
 
#10 ·
Short tutorial on how to read, display and log data from the OBD2 port using Torque Pro.
What you need:
- Torque Pro (Android). You need the paid version but the current price should be €5 or something like that
- an OBD2 buletooth adapter. They are all very similar, don't bother too much about negative reviews as most people buy the adapters not knowing how to use them and get frustrated. Just get an adapter that is not too long as you may accidentaly hit with your legs while driving. Personally I'm using "OBDLink LX" but it's not cheap right now. When I purchased it the price was around €50
- an android phone with bluetooth. You can use an Apple device but I'm not familiar with iOs so you may need somebody else for a dedicated tutorial.

Step 1: plug the the adapter to the car (the port is located below the steering wheel, just search it with your hands it's quite easy to locate. You can plug even if the car is on/moving. Just remember to remove it when you leave the car for 2 reasons: (1) it can drain the 12V battery if left plugged for a long period of time (let's say days ..) and (2) [paranoid mode on] in theory it can be used to hack the car and steal it [paranoid mode off]

Step 2: pair the adapter with your phone. Just follow the normal procedure for pairing any bluetooh device

Step 3: launch Torque Pro, tap on the dented wheel on bottom left and tap "Vehicle Profile". Create a profile, name it as you like, don't bother to config it as it has designed for ICE cars only but you need one in any case to store your settings

Step 4: now from the dented wheel menu select "Setting". The enviroment is pretty much self explanatory, just play a littl enit with "General preferences", "Units", "OBD2 Adapter settings"

Step 5: download and unzip the file Torque_Pro_files.zip in your computer
View attachment Torque_Pro_files.zip
Step 6: copy the .csv file in the main memory/.torque/extendedpids directory of your phone. Never opend the csv file with excel as suggested by windows as it will mess up the file. If needed use a program like "Notepad++"

Step 7: from settings, select "Manage extra PID/Sensors". tap on the dots on top right and select "add predefined list" and select the .csv file you copied from the list

Step 8: copy the .dash file in the main memory/.torque/dashboards directory of your phone.

Step 9: from Torque Pro inital page select "Realtime information", long press one by one all the proposed displays and delete them (boring I know). Then whithout leaving the display page tap the dented wheel on bottom left, tap on "Layout settings" and then "import layout" and select the .dash file you copaied before.

You are now ready to use Torque Pro using my list of PIDs and my display setup. You can of course play with display (your taste maybe different from mine :D ) and you can read from the different threads on other PIDs and add them to you personal list. My advise is to do it with a csv editor (like Notepad++) and reimport the new list as is way quicker than doing directly on the phone.

Data logging is a 2 step procedure. First you need to tell Torque Pro want you wanto to log: from the main page tap on the dented wheel, then "settings", then "Data logging and upload" and then "select what to log". You can select what to log from the presented list which will be a mix of our user defined PID and a bunch of useless ICE predefined PIDs. Once you'll have defined what to log (you have to do it only one time unless you want to add/remove PIDs), from the "Realtime information" page, tap on the dented wheel and select "start logging". Select "Stop logging" once you'll be done. The resulting csv file will be in the main memory/torqueLogs directory.
Remarks: all PIDs will work on MY19/20 too with the exception of max regen (Pid is the same but the formula need to be changed). Also, the estimation of the available energy in the battery is reasonable but it's not a proven science: it may be corrected in the future and/or adapted for MY21 as I'll get more data from the new car.

Questions are welcomed. Have fun :mrgreen:
 

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#28 ·
Step 1: plug the the adapter to the car (the port is located below the steering wheel, just search it with your hands it's quite easy to locate. You can plug even if the car is on/moving. Just remember to remove it when you leave the car for 2 reasons: (1) it can drain the 12V battery if left plugged for a long period of time (let's say days ..) and (2) [paranoid mode on] in theory it can be used to hack the car and steal it [paranoid mode off]

Step 2: pair the adapter with your phone. Just follow the normal procedure for pairing any bluetooh device

Step 3: launch Torque Pro, tap on the dented wheel on bottom left and tap "Vehicle Profile". Create a profile, name it as you like, don't bother to config it as it has designed for ICE cars only but you need one in any case to store your settings

Step 4: now from the dented wheel menu select "Setting". The enviroment is pretty much self explanatory, just play a littl enit with "General preferences", "Units", "OBD2 Adapter settings"

Step 5: download and unzip the file Torque_Pro_files.zip in your computer
View attachment 6280
Step 6: copy the .csv file in the main memory/.torque/extendedpids directory of your phone. Never opend the csv file with excel as suggested by windows as it will mess up the file. If needed use a program like "Notepad++"

Step 7: from settings, select "Manage extra PID/Sensors". tap on the dots on top right and select "add predefined list" and select the .csv file you copied from the list

Step 8: copy the .dash file in the main memory/.torque/dashboards directory of your phone.

Step 9: from Torque Pro inital page select "Realtime information", long press one by one all the proposed displays and delete them (boring I know). Then whithout leaving the display page tap the dented wheel on bottom left, tap on "Layout settings" and then "import layout" and select the .dash file you copaied before.
Kermit68, sorry to be a pain but I'm struggling with this, probably just me being a bit thick.

My Torque Pro but it seems a little different from yours, presumably because it's been updated since your instructions.

I've got as far as Step 9 but when I hit "import layout" it says "No dashboard layouts found - export a layout first."
I don't think I've put the .dash file in the right place, I can't see how to put it in the main memory/.torque/dashboards directory?

I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S20 FE with Android 12. The car is MY19
 
#12 ·
Thank you Kermit! That works like a charm and is definitely a great tool for what Jaguar won't give us.

I drove 320km today on Autobahn. Ambient temperature was at 6C and the app gave me insights on battery temperature. I was able to bring it 25C before charging and I saw that it would be easy to trigger that by either driving fast or "yoyoing ".
Arrived at the charger with 25C at 12% SoC and it started with 107kw. First 20kwh only took 10min.
Charging curve was close to perfect so it delivered 50kwh in about 40min.

I didn't make the graph I was too excited to see it live :)
 
#13 ·
Hi Kermit,

Thanks a lot for this.
I have been following the joint efforts in identifying the meaning of the PID, very impressive stuff!

But I was looking for a way to put it to actual use. Your tutorial does exactly that.
One issue I have though: your ZIP contains the details for the MY21 I-Pace. Mine is a MY19... As a result, many of the results work fine, but others (capacity, regen, speed etc) do not.
Are you aware of a similar guide & files somewhere for the MY2019 I-Pace for use with Torque Pro?

Thanks in advance!
 
#14 ·
EEV320 said:
Arrived at the charger with 25C at 12% SoC and it started with 107kw. First 20kwh only took 10min.
Charging curve was close to perfect so it delivered 50kwh in about 40min.
Good to hear that is helped you with faster charging and the advised results are good, certainly considering outside temperature and risk for coldgate however I would not call them perfect.
* 20kWh in 10mins is extremely good, more than technical possible as it equates to 120kW charging speed
* 30kWh in next 30 minutes is really bad - just 60kW charging speed
* Average of 50kW in 40 minutes starting at 12% is slightly above expected charge curve - which indicates 43 minutes for adding 50kW from 12% to approx 77% SoC.

Be advised that various I-pace drivers have on rare occasions managed to nearly charge 50kW in 30 minutes, the speed that Jaguar original promised when they advertised the car 0-80% in 40minutes.
See below compilation of photos taken of my best charging session with 20kW in 12 mins and 50kW in 30 mins charging from 6% to 64%.
View attachment 4775
 

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#15 ·
Grunt said:
Hi Kermit,

Thanks a lot for this.
I have been following the joint efforts in identifying the meaning of the PID, very impressive stuff!

But I was looking for a way to put it to actual use. Your tutorial does exactly that.
One issue I have though: your ZIP contains the details for the MY21 I-Pace. Mine is a MY19... As a result, many of the results work fine, but others (capacity, regen, speed etc) do not.
Are you aware of a similar guide & files somewhere for the MY2019 I-Pace for use with Torque Pro?

Thanks in advance!
Hi Grunt, sorry for the late reply.
For MY19/20 only regen / max available power should be different, all the other PIDs work the same. Energy estimation for sure is ok as the model has been developed on MY19/20 car and I did not changed for MY21. In any case here are the correct formuals you can use for earlier model:

- max regen: Max Regen, Max Regen, 0x224913, int16(A:B)/100, 0, 150, kW, 7E4 (same PID and ECU, just different formula)
- max available power: Max Available Power, Max Power, 0x224912, int16(A:B)/100, 0, 150, kW, 7E4 (same PID and ECU, just different formula)
- External temperature: Ext Temperature, Ext Temp, 0x229924, (A/2)-40, -50, 50, degC, 733

For MY21 as I found HVAC ECU (finally), we can get from the same ECU (with same 0.5C precision) as for MY19/20 so the new formula will be:
- Ext Temperature, Ext Temp, 0x229924, (A/2)-40, -50, 50, degC, 7e3 (only ECu address is different from MY19/20)

If you have any other doubt just let me know.
 
#16 ·
Last Sunday I did another HPC charging from 6% to 98% in near perfect temperature conditions (ext temp around 16C, initial battery temp around 20C). The results are very similar to the previous test and confirm that the MY21 is faster in the inital part of charging curve but slower on the second part. Overall I think the charging speed is the same or slightly worse compared to MY19/20 if you push the charging to 80% or more.

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#17 ·
Jelle v/d Meer said:
EEV320 said:
Arrived at the charger with 25C at 12% SoC and it started with 107kw. First 20kwh only took 10min.
Charging curve was close to perfect so it delivered 50kwh in about 40min.
Good to hear that is helped you with faster charging and the advised results are good, certainly considering outside temperature and risk for coldgate however I would not call them perfect.
* 20kWh in 10mins is extremely good, more than technical possible as it equates to 120kW charging speed
* 30kWh in next 30 minutes is really bad - just 60kW charging speed
* Average of 50kW in 40 minutes starting at 12% is slightly above expected charge curve - which indicates 43 minutes for adding 50kW from 12% to approx 77% SoC.

Be advised that various I-pace drivers have on rare occasions managed to nearly charge 50kW in 30 minutes, the speed that Jaguar original promised when they advertised the car 0-80% in 40minutes.
See below compilation of photos taken of my best charging session with 20kW in 12 mins and 50kW in 30 mins charging from 6% to 64%.
Best Charging Ever.JPG
Isn't the MY21 meant to have up to 150Kwh charging capacity? I have certainly seen mine hit 117 Kwh when charging.

Last week I charged at a BP Pulse (50Kwh). The Tesla 3 driver who had been using it just before me was getting <33Kwh, whereas I consistently hit 50Kwh throughout the charging session from a base of circa 28% charge to a bit over 80%.

I generally find performance at 50Kwh chargers to be superb, however 150Kwh chargers can be fairly hit and miss with typically not a dramatic improvement from 50Kwh charging (it tends to average about 70Kwh over a session).
 
#18 ·
Hood Window Automotive design Automotive lighting Motor vehicle
charged today at 2 different InstaVolt 125 kw chargers on the M1. Lower one was at Duckmanton from 50% and second at Barlborough from 30%. Pleased with the charging speed. Only needed a 20 minute top up on the way to and from Leeds. I have never had the opportunity to test the speed from a very low percentage yet.
 

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#19 ·
I had a similar quick charge on my MY 20 in September at Instavolt, over 80KW with a warm battery, nice when everything works properly. The Polar Ultrafast chargers dont seem to work as well for me
 
#20 ·
I just had a nice meeting with what I think was a Mercedes eqs Test vehicle. And he literally passed me on the charger getting 80kwh in about 30min and wasn't even full then lol.
The test driver said he had 20kwh with 150kmh. Wow. Things develop quickly.
I can't wait for the upcoming cars. After all the German manufacturers took a long time but it feels like they're coming back hard.
 
#21 ·
kermit68 said:
Grunt said:
Hi Kermit,

Thanks a lot for this.
I have been following the joint efforts in identifying the meaning of the PID, very impressive stuff!

But I was looking for a way to put it to actual use. Your tutorial does exactly that.
One issue I have though: your ZIP contains the details for the MY21 I-Pace. Mine is a MY19... As a result, many of the results work fine, but others (capacity, regen, speed etc) do not.
Are you aware of a similar guide & files somewhere for the MY2019 I-Pace for use with Torque Pro?

Thanks in advance!
Hi Grunt, sorry for the late reply.
For MY19/20 only regen / max available power should be different, all the other PIDs work the same. Energy estimation for sure is ok as the model has been developed on MY19/20 car and I did not changed for MY21. In any case here are the correct formuals you can use for earlier model:

- max regen: Max Regen, Max Regen, 0x224913, int16(A:B)/100, 0, 150, kW, 7E4 (same PID and ECU, just different formula)
- max available power: Max Available Power, Max Power, 0x224912, int16(A:B)/100, 0, 150, kW, 7E4 (same PID and ECU, just different formula)
- External temperature: Ext Temperature, Ext Temp, 0x229924, (A/2)-40, -50, 50, degC, 733

For MY21 as I found HVAC ECU (finally), we can get from the same ECU (with same 0.5C precision) as for MY19/20 so the new formula will be:
- Ext Temperature, Ext Temp, 0x229924, (A/2)-40, -50, 50, degC, 7e3 (only ECu address is different from MY19/20)

If you have any other doubt just let me know.
Thanks you so much for the very useful information. I managed to find the Max Regen PID and make the changes you proposed for MY19, but could find the rest (max available power, external temp) in the list of PID. Do you mean that we have to add custom PID and enter this information on our own or just edit an existing PID? thank you very much again
 
#22 ·
stok40 said:
Thanks you so much for the very useful information. I managed to find the Max Regen PID and make the changes you proposed for MY19, but could find the rest (max available power, external temp) in the list of PID. Do you mean that we have to add custom PID and enter this information on our own or just edit an existing PID? thank you very much again
I think I have understood you have a MY19/20. In that case, yuo have to take my MY21 PID list and edit the existing PID structure withe the modifications I posted later on. There is no need to add new PID, you just have to modify them according to your car model.
 
#23 ·
As I mentioned in another thread, I experienced a much better charging curve at a couple of ABB Ionity chargers during a long motorway trip. I think everything should be related with the inital battery temperature that in this case was higher, 30°C more or less. In such conditions the charging curve is very close to what JLR promised and very pleasant for the trip experience.

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#26 ·
Nice. What I find also interesting is that it is a very digital pattern (MY20 is really gradual).

When you overlay the curves from the different charging sessions, do they align on their timing of stepping down and up?
 
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