Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

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tutis
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Switzerland

Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by tutis » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:07 am

Hi
Has anyone here with a MY21 taken delivery of a car with lane centring (the green steering wheel sign on the dashboard, not lane keep assist which has only the two almost parallel green lines)?
My dealer has told me that Jaguar has removed it for "changes in safety regulations" after asking directly to JLR HQ. It seems that Mercedes has also removed it from some of their cars too for MY21, but not all. I am still upset this wasn't disclosed to me when I bought the car, after having test driven a MY20 which had a good enough system for me to use.

I understand that the driving assist systems for the I-Pace are from Bosch, and I suspect most German manufacturers use the same supplier and possibly the same system. However Volkswagen, Porsche, but also most other manufacturers still offer the lane centring systems for MY21. Mercedes even talks about their system for the new S-class.

So what is the logic behind this removal from Jaguar and possibly other manufacturers? Are they waiting for an update on the firmware from Bosch? Are their legal department over-zealous? Would be great to understand this better if anyone here has some insight on this topic.

Many thanks!

electric beagle
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:23 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by electric beagle » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:48 am

Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.
MY21HSE, Portofino Blue, Oyster interior, Wireless Charger, Cupholder Covers, Active Air Suspension, Adaptive Dynamics, Clear Sight rear view mirror, Panoramic Roof, Privacy Glass, Upgraded Cabin Lighting, Aluminium trim, Andersen EV Charger

Delta5
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:32 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by Delta5 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:00 am

It’s the liability issue that is the problem, these driving aids are not perfect and looking at the IGUIDE there are a lot of situations that are unsafe, I’ve experienced a couple driving. There is no way of ensuring that drivers are trained to understand the risk if the aid malfunctions, if the lane keeping fails and injury is caused the driver will blame the car, then the manufacturer has to prove the driver was trained to use the car - online instructions are not enough.

So lane keeping where the car steers itself has been downgraded to lane warning, the car warns you when you cross the white line but you are fully in control and any liability is yours. Some cars go one step further and stop you changing lane when a car is in your blind spot, linking blind spot warning with steering.
IPace SE Caesium Blue, Ivory interior, Air suspension, 18in wheels, Drivers pack, 360. arrived 16th July, very nice.

electric beagle
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:23 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by electric beagle » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 am

Delta5 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:00 am
It’s the liability issue that is the problem, these driving aids are not perfect and looking at the IGUIDE there are a lot of situations that are unsafe, I’ve experienced a couple driving. There is no way of ensuring that drivers are trained to understand the risk if the aid malfunctions, if the lane keeping fails and injury is caused the driver will blame the car, then the manufacturer has to prove the driver was trained to use the car - online instructions are not enough.

So lane keeping where the car steers itself has been downgraded to lane warning, the car warns you when you cross the white line but you are fully in control and any liability is yours. Some cars go one step further and stop you changing lane when a car is in your blind spot, linking blind spot warning with steering.
It depends how interventionist the steering assist is.

I think it works perfectly on the other car unless the driver is a moron and VW make clear the driver is responsible at all times.

Steering assist is meant to make a trip less tiring by holding the centre of the road without undue effort. On VW group cars (and Tesla's), the car detects if the driver is actually holding the wheel and steering. If that isn't detected it sounds an alarm and flashes a message, if that is ignored it shakes the wheel and will ultimately drop itself from assist mode.

It would be a shame if a very useful feature can no longer be fitted because a small number of buyers are too idiotic to be allowed out alone let alone be allowed to drive.
MY21HSE, Portofino Blue, Oyster interior, Wireless Charger, Cupholder Covers, Active Air Suspension, Adaptive Dynamics, Clear Sight rear view mirror, Panoramic Roof, Privacy Glass, Upgraded Cabin Lighting, Aluminium trim, Andersen EV Charger

Delta5
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:32 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by Delta5 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:03 am

EB It acknowledges that there are idiots or drivers that are distracted just at that moment and the car taking off on its own unexpectedly.
My very close incident was ACC related
Following a truck on a long 40mph stretch
Approaching a crossroads junction ACC slowed down with him to about 10mph
He turned Left, ACC accelerated briskly -
BUT
There was an unseen cyclist stationary waiting to turn right
I was paying attention and braked but it was a very close call and quite alarming.

AAC, IMO is safe enough on motorways etc but should cancel automatically at low speed, convenience should never override
safety
My MY 20 has lane following, having tried it, I don’t like the feel of the car correcting, so don’t use it. There is quite a lot of adverse comment online about steering assist across several brands
IPace SE Caesium Blue, Ivory interior, Air suspension, 18in wheels, Drivers pack, 360. arrived 16th July, very nice.

tutis
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by tutis » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:03 am

electric beagle wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:48 am
Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.

I already have a number of issues open with the dealer about the car; I have caught on camera in just a small road trip issues with reverse cameras not working, battery charge and range not updating during charge, preconditioning programming not working, infotainment screen flashing on and off, adaptive cruise control and emergency brake assist system malfunction, etc. Almost of which are caught on camera as I know it would otherwise be hard for them to believe.

Steering Assist is important to me, but none of the alternative cars I want seem to offer it anymore, and honestly I rather the dealer focus on fixing the other issues mentioned above. I looked at the brochure and it mentions "Drivers pack" but no direct mention of the Steering Assist; I think the dealer itself didn't know this was removed until I asked. If you look on the online i-Pace user guide, the MY20 and before do mention Steering Assist, but not for MY21 so this is no mistake.

The real issue though is that Tesla and others (Japanese and Korean brands), Mercedes S-Class continue to offer this feature for MY21. I am pretty confident VW offers it for the ID.3 MY21 as well (don't even think there is an ID.3 MY20), was briefly considering a MY21 Taycan and it was available there too. Heck Volvo continues to offer it on their cars, and they're known to be quite conservative when it comes to safety.

My conclusion is that there is no outright legal ban for these lane centring systems, and I think that this is all down to "Health and Safety" paralysis at JLR and some other places. This is what happens when the legal department runs the business.

electric beagle
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:23 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by electric beagle » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:13 am

Delta5 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:03 am
EB It acknowledges that there are idiots or drivers that are distracted just at that moment and the car taking off on its own unexpectedly.
My very close incident was ACC related
Following a truck on a long 40mph stretch
Approaching a crossroads junction ACC slowed down with him to about 10mph
He turned Left, ACC accelerated briskly -
BUT
There was an unseen cyclist stationary waiting to turn right
I was paying attention and braked but it was a very close call and quite alarming.

AAC, IMO is safe enough on motorways etc but should cancel automatically at low speed, convenience should never override
safety
My MY 20 has lane following, having tried it, I don’t like the feel of the car correcting, so don’t use it. There is quite a lot of adverse comment online about steering assist across several brands
I am sorry but if drivers are not capable of using it responsibly then they should turn it off, or alternatively it should be turned off by default and all drivers seeking to use it only allowed to enable it (perhaps via a code) after completing a safe operations training session online.

I do not see why a useful feature for a responsible user like myself should be constrained because a small number of people lack the ability to turn something off that they do not understand or are capable of using.

If you massively speed up using ACC in traffic then your speed on the ACC was set at too high a level anyway. Queue assist in traffic is a really useful feature if used properly but the car will follow the instructions it is given just as much as if your foot is on the accelerator or hand on the wheel (which it should be at all times anyway).

We are adults, we are responsible, if something does not work for us then we should turn it off and leave it to those who know how to use it responsibly.
MY21HSE, Portofino Blue, Oyster interior, Wireless Charger, Cupholder Covers, Active Air Suspension, Adaptive Dynamics, Clear Sight rear view mirror, Panoramic Roof, Privacy Glass, Upgraded Cabin Lighting, Aluminium trim, Andersen EV Charger

electric beagle
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:23 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by electric beagle » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 am

tutis wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:03 am
electric beagle wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:48 am
Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.

I already have a number of issues open with the dealer about the car; I have caught on camera in just a small road trip issues with reverse cameras not working, battery charge and range not updating during charge, preconditioning programming not working, infotainment screen flashing on and off, adaptive cruise control and emergency brake assist system malfunction, etc. Almost of which are caught on camera as I know it would otherwise be hard for them to believe.

Steering Assist is important to me, but none of the alternative cars I want seem to offer it anymore, and honestly I rather the dealer focus on fixing the other issues mentioned above. I looked at the brochure and it mentions "Drivers pack" but no direct mention of the Steering Assist; I think the dealer itself didn't know this was removed until I asked. If you look on the online i-Pace user guide, the MY20 and before do mention Steering Assist, but not for MY21 so this is no mistake.

The real issue though is that Tesla and others (Japanese and Korean brands), Mercedes S-Class continue to offer this feature for MY21. I am pretty confident VW offers it for the ID.3 MY21 as well (don't even think there is an ID.3 MY20), was briefly considering a MY21 Taycan and it was available there too. Heck Volvo continues to offer it on their cars, and they're known to be quite conservative when it comes to safety.

My conclusion is that there is no outright legal ban for these lane centring systems, and I think that this is all down to "Health and Safety" paralysis at JLR and some other places. This is what happens when the legal department runs the business.
If its a MY21 then the software update to 2.03 will solve the state of charge showing in the app and 2.06 fixes a number of other issues including recognition of the driver using the key and phone that are paired. I have to say that the range does not update very well until your first drive after charge but SOC now shows reliably, which is good enough for me as the range is mostly miles out anyway.

Its obviously up to the manufacturer what to offer or not, I suspect the lack of steer assist may really hurt their US sales so they must have considered this carefully unless it was a short term correction to an issue with a component.

Incidentally the MY21 iGuide does talk about a number of features which are just not there on the MY21 like a SIM slot and Park Assist
MY21HSE, Portofino Blue, Oyster interior, Wireless Charger, Cupholder Covers, Active Air Suspension, Adaptive Dynamics, Clear Sight rear view mirror, Panoramic Roof, Privacy Glass, Upgraded Cabin Lighting, Aluminium trim, Andersen EV Charger

Delta5
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:32 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by Delta5 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 am

If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
IPace SE Caesium Blue, Ivory interior, Air suspension, 18in wheels, Drivers pack, 360. arrived 16th July, very nice.

tutis
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Lane centring (aka Steering Assist) on MY21

Post by tutis » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:28 am

Delta5 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 am
If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
I am happy to sign a waver it that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. Also, for such systems provide by a third party, there is usually "reliance" on the third party; meaning that any litigation would be deflected to Bosch, and JLR would claim they were acting in good faith.

Finally, if this is such a safety priority for JLR, then why wouldn't they de-activate it for MY20 and before? Is it then that for MY20 and before money is the priority (i.e. not reimbursing clients who paid for this feature and therefore not removing this feature), but for MY21 and later security is the priority? Fine for JLR to have the high moral ground, but they need to be consistent.

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