New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

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chrisell
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Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:14 pm

That's very useful - thanks.
Still a bit confused though - it says that even when plugged in, no battery preconditioning happens unless you set a departure event. Or rather, without a departure event, the battery is "maintained" between -15C and +35C (TS1), which is basically ambient. ie. unless it goes over 35 or under -15, even plugged in, nothing is being done to condition the battery.
So even if it's plugged in, the battery isn't being heated or cooled unless you tell it when you next plan to drive somewhere. For a daily commute, that's ok (for the morning part), but otherwise, that means that keeping it plugged in really doesn't do anything other than keep the battery at maximum SOC. I doubt anyone is going to go through the minutiae of planning shopping trips, work commutes, trips to see families etc, then pre-programming all the departure times into the car, then making sure it's plugged in every time they get home.

Like if I wanted to go for a drive, right now, after finishing typing this, even with the car plugged in all night, the battery is going to be at (looks at outside thermometer) -8C because I decided just now to go for a drive, and didn't plan it and program it into the car yesterday.

It also says that battery preconditioning happens for up to 4 hours before a departure event. If that's pulling 4kwh during that 4 hours, that's 16kW or close to 20% of the battery capacity. Unless you're losing 20% of battery because of external temperature, it's costing more to precondition the battery than it is to just drive with the lower range, surely?
Red 2020 I-pace

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:34 pm

Just having the car plugged in does not precondition, but then you would not want it to. The car will only precondition if you tell it to do so, either by setting a departure event or by hitting the precondition button that appears on the lower screen when you unlock the car. You can also initiate preconditioning using the Jaguar Remote app (30 mins only, then manual restart) or the MyPace app in which you can set camper mode which keeps conditioning going for as long as you want.
The need for reconditioning is relative to your range expectation. If you don't plan to drive more than a hundred miles or so in a day you might as well precondition from the battery (i.e. without the car plugged in) because you will have charged it using cheap rate electricity and discharging helps to self heat the battery. Also you only need to heat the cabin and you are not worried about battery temperature because you won't use all the available energy in the miles you intend to cover before you are back home and on your charger.
If, on the other hand, you intend to drive 300 miles and only want one charge stop you are better to precondition on mains power before you leave to optimise first leg range. In that case the cheapest way to precondition in cold weather is to cover the car (by means of a garage or car cover) and heat with a separate heat source such as a greenhouse heater placed in the car overnight. If you choose to precondition the car exposed outdoors in windy sub-zero temperatures it is going to draw loads of power trying to bring the battery up to temperature and, in any case, you won't have charged the battery to full energy capacity anyway.

In answer to your final question, to perform a long precondition on full rate electricity outdoors in freezing conditions you'll use maybe 15kWh peak rate, say £1.95 but you'll still have only about 180m range. Preconditioning under cover with a separate heater will use about 2kWh and cost 26p, in which case you'll fully charge the battery from the wall and have 240m range. 60 miles on an en-route fast charger would cost you around £10.00 so, for a long trip, the first leg of say 230 miles would cost about £11.00 more if you don't think about effective preconditioning.

dernotte
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Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by dernotte » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:42 pm

Assuming that you precondition a couple of time 30 min before your departure, and you have a warm battery when you leave with an outside temp of -10c (this is what we have these days), and you drive 100km/h on the highway (this is the limit we have here) for 200km, do you think this is enough to keep the battery warm for the next fast charge, or the battery temp will cool down because of the -10c deg outside ? I can drive at 160km/h here before the fast charge.

chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:12 pm

So if you precondition from the remote app while unplugged, it obviously uses the battery to heat itself up. But preconditioning takes 4 hours according to that page, not 30 minutes. So would it actually do any good in 30 minutes or would it just be burning power for no appreciable gain?
This is what I meant by a hideous lack of usable information from Jaguar on this topic. It’s just not clear how and when preconditioning is actually beneficial.
Example : right now it’s -4C. My car is in the garage. I need to drive about 20 miles an hour or so from now. The car is unplugged. If I use the remote and precondition in 30 minutes time, ie 30 minutes before leaving, does it do anything to the battery or does it just heat the cabin? And if it heats the battery, does it use more energy to do so than I’d lose through driving 20 miles without preconditioning?
If I have to go out to my garage to plug it in each time I want to precondition it, that’s something I need to know. It also becomes a pain in the ass because it means I have to try to predict when I’m going to drive somewhere AND remember to manually set it to precondition 4 hours before I go.
Then there’s the precondition button when you unlock the car which seems to be a waste of time. If you press that it’s really not doing anything (unless you’re plugged in?) in which case you can’t drive and it sort of implies you want to sit in a cold car for 4 hours waiting for it to heat the battery.
And this is indicative of what I see the problem as here. I’ve had the car since July and there is just so little verifiable usable information about preconditioning that I don’t know what to do. Jaguar are absolutely useless. Their help lines and support emails just repeat what the extremely unhelpful manual says, the implication of which is that I need to somehow predict every trip and plug the car in 4 hours ahead of those AND use the app to precondition it.
Honestly the further into this topic I go the more confused I’m getting.
And it seems I’m not the only one judging by other ipace forums.
I just need a straight 1-2-3 answer. And if the answer is “you need to plan every trip at least 4 hours ahead of time AND you need to go and plug it in” then I’ll basically never be able to use preconditioning.

1. Does preconditioning EVER heat or cool the battery when it’s unplugged? If the answer is “no” then:
2. Does keeping it plugged in and at 100% SOC mean it’s actually a full 90kWh charge , or is it 82kWh? Which leads to:
3. If it’s the full 90kWh then surely that’s bad to keep it at 100% all the time?
And lastly
4. IF it has to be plugged in to be preconditioned AND I have to plan ahead to precondition it BUT I’m not blessed with precognition so I don’t know when I’ll be using it next, is there actually any point in keeping it plugged in in the first place ?

I have yet to get a straight answer to any of those three questions from Jaguar - either corporate or from my dealer.
Red 2020 I-pace

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
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Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:04 am

chrisell wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:12 pm
So if you precondition from the remote app while unplugged, it obviously uses the battery to heat itself up. But preconditioning takes 4 hours according to that page, not 30 minutes. So would it actually do any good in 30 minutes or would it just be burning power for no appreciable gain?
This is what I meant by a hideous lack of usable information from Jaguar on this topic. It’s just not clear how and when preconditioning is actually beneficial.
Example : right now it’s -4C. My car is in the garage. I need to drive about 20 miles an hour or so from now. The car is unplugged. If I use the remote and precondition in 30 minutes time, ie 30 minutes before leaving, does it do anything to the battery or does it just heat the cabin? And if it heats the battery, does it use more energy to do so than I’d lose through driving 20 miles without preconditioning?
If I have to go out to my garage to plug it in each time I want to precondition it, that’s something I need to know. It also becomes a pain in the ass because it means I have to try to predict when I’m going to drive somewhere AND remember to manually set it to precondition 4 hours before I go.
Then there’s the precondition button when you unlock the car which seems to be a waste of time. If you press that it’s really not doing anything (unless you’re plugged in?) in which case you can’t drive and it sort of implies you want to sit in a cold car for 4 hours waiting for it to heat the battery.
And this is indicative of what I see the problem as here. I’ve had the car since July and there is just so little verifiable usable information about preconditioning that I don’t know what to do. Jaguar are absolutely useless. Their help lines and support emails just repeat what the extremely unhelpful manual says, the implication of which is that I need to somehow predict every trip and plug the car in 4 hours ahead of those AND use the app to precondition it.
Honestly the further into this topic I go the more confused I’m getting.
And it seems I’m not the only one judging by other ipace forums.
I just need a straight 1-2-3 answer. And if the answer is “you need to plan every trip at least 4 hours ahead of time AND you need to go and plug it in” then I’ll basically never be able to use preconditioning.

1. Does preconditioning EVER heat or cool the battery when it’s unplugged? If the answer is “no” then:
2. Does keeping it plugged in and at 100% SOC mean it’s actually a full 90kWh charge , or is it 82kWh? Which leads to:
3. If it’s the full 90kWh then surely that’s bad to keep it at 100% all the time?
And lastly
4. IF it has to be plugged in to be preconditioned AND I have to plan ahead to precondition it BUT I’m not blessed with precognition so I don’t know when I’ll be using it next, is there actually any point in keeping it plugged in in the first place ?

I have yet to get a straight answer to any of those three questions from Jaguar - either corporate or from my dealer.
1. Stop worrying about battery temperature as the car takes care of that for you. Use preconditioning to heat the cabin so that it is comfortable when you leave. Personally I use the MyPace Apple Watch app. I hit the button 20 minutes or so before I plan to drive away irrespective of whether the car is plugged into a charger or not. The only proviso is that, if the car is kept outdoors in very cold conditions, you won’t have a full energy level in the battery to achieve maximum range.

2. The I Pace has a 90kWh battery of which about 84kWh is usable. You can leave it plugged in as long as you like on a 7kWh wall charger as that will not damage the battery. Long and slow charging is best for cell balancing, so you are less likely to have a cell failure if you charge and precondition at home.

3. You can precondition from the battery or the wall. Leave the car plugged in whenever you are at home and use your phone or watch to start preconditioning when you know you are going to use the car. Even a few minutes is enough to warm the cabin.

Every EV suffers the same constraints in very cold conditions. It is true that the battery heating elements in the I Pace are not as efficient as Tesla’s and they suffer from heat loss through the battery chassis. If you understand that when preparing for journeys where you need maximum range in freezing weather you just compensate by preconditioning in a garage or under a cover. Using a separate heater in those circumstances is just a cheaper option.

You are asking for a simple answer to a range of circumstances that affect the car’s capacity to achieve best range and there isn’t one. That’s why you observe conflicting results. Jaguar cannot explain every circumstance in which you might use the car or understand all of your preferences, so you do need to make one or two procedural decisions to get the best out of the car in extreme weather. Whatever you do don’t get wrapped up in the fast charging thing. No battery likes being blasted with current, especially when hot. Much better to optimise range on the first leg of a long journey and en-route charge as little as needed to reach your destination. Personally I carry a Juice Booster 2 which allows me to charge from any power socket from 13A domestic to 32A 3 phase (but only at 7kWh maximum). This increases my options for destination charging and preconditioning and reduces the need for en route rapid charging. I mentioned in another post that although I’m a relatively high mileage business user I’ve only spent about 40 hours en-route charging in 32,000 miles. If I had been driving a fossil car I would have spent 20 hours refuelling in that distance travelled, so it’s not exactly been a burden given the huge fuel savings.

chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:53 pm

Warming the cabin is not important to me - I have heated seats and a heated wheel, so I'm warm within a minute or so of starting to drive anyway.
The thing I care about the most is the battery.
Knowing it's 90kWh with about 84kWh usable is usable information for me, because it tells me that "100%" isn't "100%". It tells me that Jag deliberately don't let you charge to 100% so they can cycle the cells as their management system desires. It also tells me that I'm not going through a deep charge/discharge with the battery when it shows "100%". It also explains why I don't need to worry about an 80% charge cutoff for battery life.

A little background as we've strayed into that territory: I had one of Musk's abominations a few years ago. At the top of this post I mentioned that where I live in America, there exists one of the best car-killer hills in the world, and my commute took me up and down that road every day. 3000ft elevation difference in 13 miles. It's unusual to see the side of the road NOT littered with dead cars, especially in the summer. Anyway, I commuted up and down there, religiously plugging the Tesla in every night, until about 4 weeks into ownership, it just died. Like properly died. As in Tesla had to send technicians out from California to take a look at the car, and they ended up taking it away. When it was returned, it had a new battery pack and new firmware, and it was explained to me that (at that time) there was an issue with deep-cycling the battery and that I'd killed it because of my commute. The battery and software didn't like the massive drain of the climb followed by 13 miles of downhill recharging on the other side. The Jag has the charge-limit indicator on the display when the battery is full. The Tesla didn't. It also didn't hold anything in reserve so when the SOC said 100%, it meant 100% (which is why Tesla owners obsess about stopping the charge at 80%). Anyway, Tesla blamed me for driving the car like a car, and took no responsibility for the fact that their faulty software and hardware was trying to over-charge a deep-cycled battery on the downhill leg of the journey. Essentially once the battery was at 100% they would keep trying to charge it using the regenerated power from braking and downhill driving. I'm sure this has changed now - this was in 2015 when I went through this. But even so, being blamed and being told that it was my fault, and killing an EV through what is just 'normal' driving out here, leaves a pretty bad taste in your mouth. I was able to use America's Lemon Law to give them the car back and get my money back because it was basically absolute junk and not fit for purpose. I then had a 4-banger for four years before buying the I-pace, and so far it's been so much better than anything Tesla could dream of producing. But - as stated - Jag have zero usable info about how their battery system works, and being nervous about killing another EV is why I've been trying to get that info.
Which I now have.
It's plugged into my 7kW ChargeStation at the moment in my garage. I set a precondition for 11am today so I'll report back on what that does after the 40 mile round-trip we have planned in -5C weather.
Red 2020 I-pace

Captain.Plummet
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Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:43 pm

chrisell wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:53 pm
Warming the cabin is not important to me - I have heated seats and a heated wheel, so I'm warm within a minute or so of starting to drive anyway.
The thing I care about the most is the battery.
Knowing it's 90kWh with about 84kWh usable is usable information for me, because it tells me that "100%" isn't "100%". It tells me that Jag deliberately don't let you charge to 100% so they can cycle the cells as their management system desires. It also tells me that I'm not going through a deep charge/discharge with the battery when it shows "100%". It also explains why I don't need to worry about an 80% charge cutoff for battery life.

A little background as we've strayed into that territory: I had one of Musk's abominations a few years ago. At the top of this post I mentioned that where I live in America, there exists one of the best car-killer hills in the world, and my commute took me up and down that road every day. 3000ft elevation difference in 13 miles. It's unusual to see the side of the road NOT littered with dead cars, especially in the summer. Anyway, I commuted up and down there, religiously plugging the Tesla in every night, until about 4 weeks into ownership, it just died. Like properly died. As in Tesla had to send technicians out from California to take a look at the car, and they ended up taking it away. When it was returned, it had a new battery pack and new firmware, and it was explained to me that (at that time) there was an issue with deep-cycling the battery and that I'd killed it because of my commute. The battery and software didn't like the massive drain of the climb followed by 13 miles of downhill recharging on the other side. The Jag has the charge-limit indicator on the display when the battery is full. The Tesla didn't. It also didn't hold anything in reserve so when the SOC said 100%, it meant 100% (which is why Tesla owners obsess about stopping the charge at 80%). Anyway, Tesla blamed me for driving the car like a car, and took no responsibility for the fact that their faulty software and hardware was trying to over-charge a deep-cycled battery on the downhill leg of the journey. Essentially once the battery was at 100% they would keep trying to charge it using the regenerated power from braking and downhill driving. I'm sure this has changed now - this was in 2015 when I went through this. But even so, being blamed and being told that it was my fault, and killing an EV through what is just 'normal' driving out here, leaves a pretty bad taste in your mouth. I was able to use America's Lemon Law to give them the car back and get my money back because it was basically absolute junk and not fit for purpose. I then had a 4-banger for four years before buying the I-pace, and so far it's been so much better than anything Tesla could dream of producing. But - as stated - Jag have zero usable info about how their battery system works, and being nervous about killing another EV is why I've been trying to get that info.
Which I now have.
It's plugged into my 7kW ChargeStation at the moment in my garage. I set a precondition for 11am today so I'll report back on what that does after the 40 mile round-trip we have planned in -5C weather.
I see why you are outspoken having had the problem with your Tesla. Jaguar were very conservative with battery management from the get-go and it has paid off for them so far. They opened up more capacity last year when they had enough data to do so safely but no EV will let you use 100% battery capacity as that would be damaging. You might argue that a vehicle quoting 90kWh should have a 96kWh pack and I would not disagree, but that does not seem to be manufacturer policy.
The I Pace can generate about 90kWh on full regen if you are on a steep decline, roughly equivalent to a rapid charger. If the battery is hot that isn’t ideal, so you are better off switching to low regen and using some brakes if the downhill is really steep and really long.
Coincidentally the chap that designed the battery control unit for the I Pace is a close friend who helps me with the design of wireless charging systems for our own products. He won’t discuss Jaguar technical matters in great detail as he is restricted by NDA’s, but he does give me some useful tips.

Delta5
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Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Delta5 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:49 pm

I charged mine and set preconditioning at the same time, leaving it plugged in, preconditioning started about 90 mins before departure, paused for 30 mins then restarted for the 20 mins before leaving.

According to my smart meter around 6kwh was used at 12p, so 72p to precondition, ambient temp -3C
IPace SE Caesium Blue, Ivory interior, Air suspension, 18in wheels, Drivers pack, 360. arrived 16th July, very nice.

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ANBO
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Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by ANBO » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:10 pm

Do you know if the battery reached the 20°C after 90 min?
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chrisell
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Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:52 pm

Results of my own experiment. Improved kWh rate while driving. Round trip reported around 38.8kWh/100mi. Last trip on this same route, under same conditions without preconditioning was around 50kWh/100mi.
Attached is the charging graph from my ChargePoint, from when I plugged in around 6 last night to 11 this morning when I left. The preconditioning started about 9:45 this morning. -3C outside. Car in garage which was about +1C.

IMG-4956.jpg

Red 2020 I-pace

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