New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

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ANBO
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Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by ANBO » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:31 pm

chrisell wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:50 pm

Conclusion 1: the I-pace is happier to be in hotter weather with the A/C going than it is to be in colder weather with the heating going. Seems about right as a general statement about batteries.

Conclusion 2: WLTP is an absolute joke. It's worse "guidance" than the old EPA gas-mileage numbers for ICE cars. About all it's good for is comparing EVs to each other. If one EV has a higher WLTP range, it means it has a higher real-world range. It doesn't mean you'll ever actually achieve the WLTP range.
Was doing the same last week. Oh what to do in this long Covid winter nights 😄.

Conclusion 1: i am getting on average 17% more consumption in NOV/DEC compared to JUL/AUG. kWh/100mi: 43.3 vs 37.3 or kWh/100km: 26.9 vs 22.9, showing a linear correlation with the temperature decline.

kWh by temperature.jpg

Conclusion 2: WLTP calculates to full usable battery, right? In my long term data, anything before 18kWh/100km or 29kWh/100mi i consider an outlier. 18kWh on 84.4kWh battery would give 470km.

Since range really applies to long distance usage, where typical charge seem to be more between 10-80% or 60kWh usable battery, that translates to practical usually distance:
• summer (22.9kWh/100km 20"): 262 km / 162 mi
• winter (26.9kWh/100km 18"): 223 km / 138 mi

Other findings:
First 5 miles: the first 3.1km/5mi or maybe 5 minutes increases the consumption by 25% above the average. So yes, those short distances are killing for range.

kWh by distance.jpg

Tyre pressure: coincidently i seem to have lowered the tyre pressure to 2.5 bar/ 36 psi around the same time the day-time temperature plummeted early November. This increased the first 5 mi consumption to 47% above average. After i increased last week to a (very) high 3.1 bar / 45 psi the graph seems to come down to linear projections.

kWh by temperature less than 5 mi.jpg

Winter tyres: changing from 20" summer to 18" winter tyres early October does not seem to have affected range. In fact it seems to improve, probably under influence of the higher pressure upon fitting. Don't recall exact numbers, but it was in the range of 2.8 bar summer vs. to 3.0 winter.
🇨🇭 EV400 HSE (MY2020; MAR 2020); 18" ❄
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chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:22 pm

What I like about EVs is that the heating is instant. It's basically a mobile fan heater, so preconditioning the cabin doesn't do much for me. Within a mile of starting to drive, my feet are warm, and shortly afterwards, the steering wheel and seats are up to temperature. Now - what WOULD be nice would be if preconditioning turned on the driver's heated seat and steering wheel. My Volvo XC60 used to do that and it was brilliant in cold weather.
-10C here this morning, reported kWh rate is 62.4 for a 5 mile round trip.
Red 2020 I-pace

chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:30 pm

ANBO wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:31 pm
chrisell wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:50 pm

Conclusion 1: the I-pace is happier to be in hotter weather with the A/C going than it is to be in colder weather with the heating going. Seems about right as a general statement about batteries.

Conclusion 2: WLTP is an absolute joke. It's worse "guidance" than the old EPA gas-mileage numbers for ICE cars. About all it's good for is comparing EVs to each other. If one EV has a higher WLTP range, it means it has a higher real-world range. It doesn't mean you'll ever actually achieve the WLTP range.
Was doing the same last week. Oh what to do in this long Covid winter nights 😄.

Conclusion 1: i am getting on average 17% more consumption in NOV/DEC compared to JUL/AUG. kWh/100mi: 43.3 vs 37.3 or kWh/100km: 26.9 vs 22.9, showing a linear correlation with the temperature decline.

kWh by temperature.jpg

Conclusion 2: WLTP calculates to full usable battery, right? In my long term data, anything before 18kWh/100km or 29kWh/100mi i consider an outlier. 18kWh on 84.4kWh battery would give 470km.

Since range really applies to long distance usage, where typical charge seem to be more between 10-80% or 60kWh usable battery, that translates to practical usually distance:
• summer (22.9kWh/100km 20"): 262 km / 162 mi
• winter (26.9kWh/100km 18"): 223 km / 138 mi

Other findings:
First 5 miles: the first 3.1km/5mi or maybe 5 minutes increases the consumption by 25% above the average. So yes, those short distances are killing for range.

kWh by distance.jpg

Tyre pressure: coincidently i seem to have lowered the tyre pressure to 2.5 bar/ 36 psi around the same time the day-time temperature plummeted early November. This increased the first 5 mi consumption to 47% above average. After i increased last week to a (very) high 3.1 bar / 45 psi the graph seems to come down to linear projections.

kWh by temperature less than 5 mi.jpg

Winter tyres: changing from 20" summer to 18" winter tyres early October does not seem to have affected range. In fact it seems to improve, probably under influence of the higher pressure upon fitting. Don't recall exact numbers, but it was in the range of 2.8 bar summer vs. to 3.0 winter.
Interesting that your drop for winter weather is only 17%. You're right - it must be that almost all my trips at the moment are under 5 miles that is just hammering the range badly.
Also thanks for reminding me about tyre pressures. Now it's lower than zero every day, my fronts are down to 34psi and my rears are at 39. I'll air those back up to 37 and 42.
Red 2020 I-pace

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:23 pm

The capacity of the battery when charged in freezing conditions is not as great as it is when warm. The GoM may think the battery is fully charged and indicate 200+ miles, but at such low temperatures there is nowhere near the capacity that is available when charging to full at higher temps. The best solution is to insulate your garage, keep it reasonably warm (say 10degC) and charge the car in there. This would be far more effective and loads cheaper than charging outside in low temperatures and then preconditioning before you leave. In sub-zero temperatures and with wind chill it is barely possible to heat the battery due to heat sinking into the chassis. You would need to precondition for a couple of hours under a car cover to get anywhere close to a decent operating temperature.

chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:09 pm

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:23 pm
The capacity of the battery when charged in freezing conditions is not as great as it is when warm. The GoM may think the battery is fully charged and indicate 200+ miles, but at such low temperatures there is nowhere near the capacity that is available when charging to full at higher temps. The best solution is to insulate your garage, keep it reasonably warm (say 10degC) and charge the car in there. This would be far more effective and loads cheaper than charging outside in low temperatures and then preconditioning before you leave. In sub-zero temperatures and with wind chill it is barely possible to heat the battery due to heat sinking into the chassis. You would need to precondition for a couple of hours under a car cover to get anywhere close to a decent operating temperature.
My garage is detached from the house and not exactly well-insulated. That being said, it's -10C outside today and the garage is reporting about -1C inside so it's better than being outside for sure. There comes the question of trying to insulate a 40-year old garage and then heat it but the cost of doing that would be more than the saving of having the car somewhere warm :D
Red 2020 I-pace

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:34 pm

The temperature difference is going to be down to wind chill. If you simply close any holes in the garage and put a small oil filled radiator inside the car (the type you might use in a greenhouse) it will keep the car warm enough to optimise charging. The heater will use about 200Wh say 2kWh overnight whilst a two hour precondition will use about 12kWh and be nowhere near as effective.
If you factor the increase in battery capacity (preconditioning from freezing will not improve the SoC) you’ll save a lot on en route charging too.

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:22 pm

I did a sanity check this morning. The car stood outside overnight in -3degC temperatures but there was no wind. I preconditioned for three hours before leaving home fully charged with 251 miles on the GoM and clocked 40.2Wh/m over a round trip of 27.5 miles leaving 86% and 220 miles on the GoM. Average speed was 39mph with over half of it at 50-55mph. This is similar to the car's performance in balmier temperatures. Had I left without preconditioning the consumption would have been in the region of 550-600Wh/m but, had I left with just 30 minutes preconditioning, the results would not have been a lot better. Had it been windy the results would have been much worse. There really is no substitute for bringing the car as close as you can to optimum temperature and charging with a warmed battery, especially when driving in cold conditions. Short or no preconditioning, wind chill and modest journey times will give range results that appear frighteningly poor.

chrisell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, USA

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by chrisell » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:54 pm

3 hours preconditioning at what rate? ie. what's the car pulling from the wall to pre-condition? I've seen YouTube videos where it pulls anything from 1kWh to 4kWh to pre-condition. (the 4kWh rate was in Norway at -5c). If it's pulling 4, then 3 hours is 12kWh and that gets into the territory of being moot because the drop in range from a cold battery wouldn't be much more or less than the 12kWh you spent to warm it up.

Also it's shockingly unclear from Jaguar what preconditioning actually does, what the SOC has to be for it to work, and if it actually DOES work. The best I've been able to gather from the various forums is if the battery is between 80 and 100%, preconditioning works but it takes 2 to 3 hours. If it's under 80%, preconditioning does nothing. That's all heresay and opinion and Jaguar don't seem to have any clear guidance on this at all, which is why I've largely not even bothered experimenting with it. That and the fact my car isn't plugged in every night. (again because a lack of information from Jag about what it does to the longevity of the battery having it at 100% the whole time). Then there's the "does it actually use 90kWh or only 82kWh"? question. Is 100% actually 90kWh or is it 82kWh which means they've 'baked in' a maximum owner-capable charge of 90%? A simple technical doc from Jag would go a long way to helping understand exactly what we - as owners - should expect. We shouldn't need third party apps like Wattcat and MyPace to try to glean this information and force an 80% charge by continually monitoring the car and then automatically, remotely, telling it to shut off charging.

Plus - as I said up front - I've been deliberately driving my I-Pace with zero concessions to it being an electric car. Which is what you would have to expect of uninformed new-to-EV owners. That's not me though - we've had a Nissan Leaf for 5 years which we've driven "like an electric car", making concessions left, right and center. For the Jag I wanted to do it differently.
Red 2020 I-pace

Delta5
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:32 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Delta5 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:37 pm

As it was a cold bright day decided to take a scenic winter road trip, charged to 100% and preconditioned 218 miles on the GOM.
Temperature - 3C up to +2C after lunch, 3 legs with 1 hour break in between, total miles 170, 30 miles left on GOM, all legs close to 40kw/100miles, heater was on 22C all the day ( OH refused to turn it down)

It was mostly quiet “ A “ roads slower, than expected due to icy patches but still averaged 40mph overall, beautiful snowy winter scenery in a beautiful car, 200 miles in freezing conditions, good enough for me.
IPace SE Caesium Blue, Ivory interior, Air suspension, 18in wheels, Drivers pack, 360. arrived 16th July, very nice.

Captain.Plummet
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: New owner with some real-world, no-bullshit range data

Post by Captain.Plummet » Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:55 pm

chrisell wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:54 pm
3 hours preconditioning at what rate? ie. what's the car pulling from the wall to pre-condition? I've seen YouTube videos where it pulls anything from 1kWh to 4kWh to pre-condition. (the 4kWh rate was in Norway at -5c). If it's pulling 4, then 3 hours is 12kWh and that gets into the territory of being moot because the drop in range from a cold battery wouldn't be much more or less than the 12kWh you spent to warm it up.

Also it's shockingly unclear from Jaguar what preconditioning actually does, what the SOC has to be for it to work, and if it actually DOES work. The best I've been able to gather from the various forums is if the battery is between 80 and 100%, preconditioning works but it takes 2 to 3 hours. If it's under 80%, preconditioning does nothing. That's all heresay and opinion and Jaguar don't seem to have any clear guidance on this at all, which is why I've largely not even bothered experimenting with it. That and the fact my car isn't plugged in every night. (again because a lack of information from Jag about what it does to the longevity of the battery having it at 100% the whole time). Then there's the "does it actually use 90kWh or only 82kWh"? question. Is 100% actually 90kWh or is it 82kWh which means they've 'baked in' a maximum owner-capable charge of 90%? A simple technical doc from Jag would go a long way to helping understand exactly what we - as owners - should expect. We shouldn't need third party apps like Wattcat and MyPace to try to glean this information and force an 80% charge by continually monitoring the car and then automatically, remotely, telling it to shut off charging.

Plus - as I said up front - I've been deliberately driving my I-Pace with zero concessions to it being an electric car. Which is what you would have to expect of uninformed new-to-EV owners. That's not me though - we've had a Nissan Leaf for 5 years which we've driven "like an electric car", making concessions left, right and center. For the Jag I wanted to do it differently.
There is one. Another forum member uploaded it but I’ve attached it here. I do think you are misunderstanding the complications of charging and preconditioning in relation to battery / air temperature and wind chill. Also, there is no problem having your car plugged in overnight at 100% using the onboard charger, in fact it is preferable as it balances the cells. My car sits at 100% on the charger every night, it is two years old, has covered 32,000 miles and battery degradation is 1.2%. What you do not want to do too often is hook it up to a 100kW fast charger with a hot battery. Go for the 50kW option and wait a bit longer if you want to avoid battery issues.

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