100kW charging: It’s a joke

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Jelle v/d Meer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Tilburg / Netherlands

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Jelle v/d Meer » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:12 pm

See attached Excel file or below graphs a charging session from 0% to 100% this is what you get most of the times.
* In 40 minutes it charged from 0% to 63% (my best ever charging session charged in just over 30 minutes from 6% to 64%)
* It takes 54 minutes to get to 80% and another 30 minutes to get to 100%.

Sometimes it will be slower and on a very rare occasion it will be quicker.
PS: The little jump up in charging speed at around 74 minutes and 95% is because that is what I started the pre-conditioning which seems to boost charging speed (also uses energy so net you likely lose time)

Capture6.JPG

Ionity Charging Session.xlsx
(716.37 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
I-pace S + HUD + Drive Pack + Light Oyster Sport Seats + Tailgate I Ceasium Blue | 18" wheels
Infotainment 20A + Telematics 18.2 | ODO 53.200km | 2020 Efficiency 203watt/km.

Maxwell_400
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:09 am
Location: Norway

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Maxwell_400 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:31 pm

So we have two problems; max is too low and it tapers off too early. The e-tron tapers at 80%. I would actually prefer 80kW with late taper than 100kW with early taper.
I-Pace SE++, MY20, 18" summer & winter, no panoroof, towbar, spare wheel, H264, H280, TCU 18.2, BECM: BP-AAE-BC-AC-BE

Jelle v/d Meer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Tilburg / Netherlands

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Jelle v/d Meer » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:14 pm

Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:31 pm
So we have two problems; max is too low and it tapers off too early. The e-tron tapers at 80%. I would actually prefer 80kW with late taper than 100kW with early taper.
If they both get to 80% or 90% in the same time than I would certainly prefer the 100kW with an earlier taper.
My logic is that when you travel LONG distance you do not allows charge to 80/90%, multiple times I charged to 50%-70% - with 100kW you would be there quicker even if it tapers earlier.

It is quicker (not cheaper) to drive 2x 150km and charge twice from 10% to 60% than to drive 1x 300km and charge once from 10% to 90%.

Arrive at station 1 with 10% SoC:
Option 1: Total time 4hrs 01mins - 64kW charged
Charge in 58 minutes to 90% adding 80% SoC or 64kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 300km with 100km/h using 213wh/km arriving 3 hours later with 10% at station 3.

Option 2: Total time 3hrs 44mins - 80kW charged
Charge in 31.5 minutes to 60% adding 50% SoC or 40kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 150km with 120km/h with 267wh/km arriving 1hr 15mins later with 10% at station 2.
Adding 5 minutes extra for getting off and on the highway
Charge in 31.5 minutes to 60% adding 50% SoC or 40kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 150km with 120km/h with 267wh/km arriving 1hr 15mins later with 10% at station 3.
I-pace S + HUD + Drive Pack + Light Oyster Sport Seats + Tailgate I Ceasium Blue | 18" wheels
Infotainment 20A + Telematics 18.2 | ODO 53.200km | 2020 Efficiency 203watt/km.

Maxwell_400
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:09 am
Location: Norway

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Maxwell_400 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm

Jelle v/d Meer wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:14 pm
Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:31 pm
So we have two problems; max is too low and it tapers off too early. The e-tron tapers at 80%. I would actually prefer 80kW with late taper than 100kW with early taper.
If they both get to 80% or 90% in the same time than I would certainly prefer the 100kW with an earlier taper.
My logic is that when you travel LONG distance you do not allows charge to 80/90%, multiple times I charged to 50%-70% - with 100kW you would be there quicker even if it tapers earlier.

It is quicker (not cheaper) to drive 2x 150km and charge twice from 10% to 60% than to drive 1x 300km and charge once from 10% to 90%.

Arrive at station 1 with 10% SoC:
Option 1: Total time 4hrs 01mins - 64kW charged
Charge in 58 minutes to 90% adding 80% SoC or 64kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 300km with 100km/h using 213wh/km arriving 3 hours later with 10% at station 3.

Option 2: Total time 3hrs 44mins - 80kW charged
Charge in 31.5 minutes to 60% adding 50% SoC or 40kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 150km with 120km/h with 267wh/km arriving 1hr 15mins later with 10% at station 2.
Adding 5 minutes extra for getting off and on the highway
Charge in 31.5 minutes to 60% adding 50% SoC or 40kW (assuming 80kW battery) + 3 minutes for start/stop charge
Drive 150km with 120km/h with 267wh/km arriving 1hr 15mins later with 10% at station 3.
I guess you are right (you are right!), I usually arrive at a charging station with 30-40% battery and charge to 90%, average charging speed at a 50kW charger is then only 40kW. Ionity average is 53kW. Seems that I need to improve on my charging scheme.
I-Pace SE++, MY20, 18" summer & winter, no panoroof, towbar, spare wheel, H264, H280, TCU 18.2, BECM: BP-AAE-BC-AC-BE

kermit68
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:06 pm
Location: Rome / Italy

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by kermit68 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 pm

Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm
I guess you are right (you are right!), I usually arrive at a charging station with 30-40% battery and charge to 90%, average charging speed at a 50kW charger is then only 40kW. Ionity average is 53kW. Seems that I need to improve on my charging scheme.
Based on my experience, using 50kw DC charger you can get up to 80% at full speed, at 85% with minimal waste of time, at 90% with acceptable waste of time. Beyond that it's just a waste of time unless you need the energy to get to the next charger.
Interesting note: as soon as the battery temperature goes above 37C you loose some energy while charging as the AC compressor goes up. If this happens before reaching 80% SoC (at a 50 kw DC charger) this slows down the charging as 2 or 3 kw are diverted to the compressor. If this happens after 80% SoC this is almost free as the tapering of the charging curve leaves some spare energy for the compressor.

The same applies to 100kw but probably you never loos time as the I-Pace never (or almost never) uses the full available 100kw.
MY20 Yulong White SE, 20", air suspension, privacy glass, black pack and other fine stuffs

Jelle v/d Meer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Tilburg / Netherlands

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Jelle v/d Meer » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:30 pm

Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm
I usually arrive at a charging station with 30-40% battery and charge to 90%, average charging speed at a 50kW charger is then only 40kW. Ionity average is 53kW. Seems that I need to improve on my charging scheme.
Yep most of the times the charging station is never in the perfect location - arriving with 40% is not ideal but if you can't make it to the next suitable 100kW station there is no choice. If only 50kW is available it indeed makes little difference but with 100kW available (even if it runs at 80kW) there is a benefit to arrive with lower SoC % (presuming you need to charge the same amount of kWh). Luckily more and more HPC stations are being build.

On my first long trip I had to drive 10km off the highway in Southeast Germany for a 100kW charger and for the last part only a 50kW was available. I used 5 charging stations for a 915km trip simply because so few HPC were available. My upcoming outgoing trip In August is 1,237km and I plan to use 5 charging stations but have much more choice mainly thanks to Ionity - there are minimal 17 reliable HPC stations (minimal 4x 150kW) within 1km of my highway route - 13 of those are Ionity.

Not counting the pre-excluded ones based on bad reliability reputation, awkward to get to or under construction, if I count those as well I get to 25 HPC stations. On top of that ENBW has and is building in Germany a lot of locations with 2x 100kW+ chargers mainly near highway rest stops. This likely will get a further boost now that German government made it mandatory for every fuelstation to have chargers installed.
I-pace S + HUD + Drive Pack + Light Oyster Sport Seats + Tailgate I Ceasium Blue | 18" wheels
Infotainment 20A + Telematics 18.2 | ODO 53.200km | 2020 Efficiency 203watt/km.

Maxwell_400
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:09 am
Location: Norway

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Maxwell_400 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:57 am

Jelle v/d Meer wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:30 pm
Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm
I usually arrive at a charging station with 30-40% battery and charge to 90%, average charging speed at a 50kW charger is then only 40kW. Ionity average is 53kW. Seems that I need to improve on my charging scheme.
Yep most of the times the charging station is never in the perfect location - arriving with 40% is not ideal but if you can't make it to the next suitable 100kW station there is no choice. If only 50kW is available it indeed makes little difference but with 100kW available (even if it runs at 80kW) there is a benefit to
It is more that I do not stop to charge, I charge when I stop. Drive for 3-4hrs, stop for lunch and charge, then drive to destination and charge overnight. Average speed is only 70km/t on the roads I travel so 3-4hrs is approximately 60% of the battery.
I-Pace SE++, MY20, 18" summer & winter, no panoroof, towbar, spare wheel, H264, H280, TCU 18.2, BECM: BP-AAE-BC-AC-BE

Jelle v/d Meer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Tilburg / Netherlands

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Jelle v/d Meer » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:25 am

Maxwell_400 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:57 am
Jelle v/d Meer wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:30 pm
Maxwell_400 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm
I usually arrive at a charging station with 30-40% battery and charge to 90%, average charging speed at a 50kW charger is then only 40kW. Ionity average is 53kW. Seems that I need to improve on my charging scheme.
Yep most of the times the charging station is never in the perfect location - arriving with 40% is not ideal but if you can't make it to the next suitable 100kW station there is no choice. If only 50kW is available it indeed makes little difference but with 100kW available (even if it runs at 80kW) there is a benefit to
It is more that I do not stop to charge, I charge when I stop. Drive for 3-4hrs, stop for lunch and charge, then drive to destination and charge overnight. Average speed is only 70km/t on the roads I travel so 3-4hrs is approximately 60% of the battery.
That is even smarter and very good - in that case it also doesn't matter that charging goes a bit slower.
My long trips always involve 95% highway and most often German autobahn so usually travelling speeds are 120-130km/h meaning you have to stop to charge every 2hrs.
I-pace S + HUD + Drive Pack + Light Oyster Sport Seats + Tailgate I Ceasium Blue | 18" wheels
Infotainment 20A + Telematics 18.2 | ODO 53.200km | 2020 Efficiency 203watt/km.

CaptainJAG
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:55 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by CaptainJAG » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:44 pm

To put some oil into the fire of this discussion...
I had 102kw (showing on the Ionity Charger) of charging speed yesterday from 6% to 35% SoC 👍😁

545258F5-7750-4C55-ADEC-99B1335D04C8.jpeg

103CAA63-7269-4A96-A026-12E17B3FEE61.jpeg

The I-Pace can do it... I think the limits of battery temperature into the BMS are too tight to see the 100kw on regular basis.... if JLR will loosen the limits a bit, everything is allright... the pouch cells can take quite a bit of stress...

Where can I find the information, the I-Pace 2021 will get a different battery pack? Are these rumors or hard facts?

Still hoping on a Software Update bringing back the 100kw charging rate under close to all conditions

BR

Christian

Jelle v/d Meer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Tilburg / Netherlands

Re: 100kW charging: It’s a joke

Post by Jelle v/d Meer » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:59 pm

CaptainJAG wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:44 pm
To put some oil into the fire of this discussion...
I had 102kw (showing on the Ionity Charger) of charging speed yesterday from 6% to 35% SoC 👍😁

The I-Pace can do it... I think the limits of battery temperature into the BMS are too tight to see the 100kw on regular basis.... if JLR will loosen the limits a bit, everything is allright... the pouch cells can take quite a bit of stress...
That is exactly the problem - the BMS is set so tight that the window in which 100kW is allowed is extremely narrow. I have done well over 80 100kW+ DC chargers and with upcoming summer trip that will be a 100, so far only 1 gave me 100kW for 30 minutes, once for 10 minutes and the rest all 5 minutes or shorter and many more never even got 100kW.

It is the same marketing bullshit as Tesla stating that the Model 3 can charge at 250kW - purely technically looking that is true however it does say it is only in optimum conditions, at the most powerful chargers and only for a short period of time.
When Jaguar advertised with 0-80% in 40 minutes (something I still have not seen) it sets a fair expectation of their customers that in most situations on the right charger it can be achieved. Obviously on a 200amp charger it is not possible or with cold weather or when already 60% full.
That said it is still strange that even if it only runs at 200amps so 80-84kW it already starts to taper off at 50% SoC while to achieve 0-80% in 40 minutes you need a just above 100kW average for 40 minutes.

The ideal circumstances seem to be after a bit faster drive charge from a low SoC % while outside temperature is around 20 degrees and ideally light rain or some wind for natural cooling effect.

PS: Below session is the ONLY session I ever saw the I-pace charging with between 200 and 250amps. All other sessions that started with 250amps the drop was instant to sub 200amps.

Best Charging Ever.JPG

I-pace S + HUD + Drive Pack + Light Oyster Sport Seats + Tailgate I Ceasium Blue | 18" wheels
Infotainment 20A + Telematics 18.2 | ODO 53.200km | 2020 Efficiency 203watt/km.

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