Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

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Captain.Plummet
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:31 am

More chargers are better than none, but mixing single charging bays with alcohol vendors is a recipe for trouble. Imagine going into a Toby carvery to ask the family who have ICEd the charging bay to leave their Sunday roast and move their car, especially if the car park is otherwise full.
Disputes over a ICEing at a single charge point at my Mum’s care home have led to two stand up arguments, leading to the charger being switched off by the management.

fa147
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by fa147 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:49 am

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:31 am
More chargers are better than none, but mixing single charging bays with alcohol vendors is a recipe for trouble. Imagine going into a Toby carvery to ask the family who have ICEd the charging bay to leave their Sunday roast and move their car, especially if the car park is otherwise full.
Disputes over a ICEing at a single charge point at my Mum’s care home have led to two stand up arguments, leading to the charger being switched off by the management.
And the way to resolve that.... which by the way you were against when I mentioned it previously... financial penalties. There is a set max time of 2 hours and then you have to pay over the odd for staying. This results in responsibilities being observed because no one wants to be (financially) penalised, so they abide by the rules set.

This is why every type of parking system in the world comes with a penalty if you over park, it forces the individual to take responsibility of their own actions.

So in summary & my view:
- DC charging (so that all cars can benefit) of rates up 20 kW
- Far more “bays” per location
This is due to lower max DC output. eg 5* 20kW rather than 1* 100kW or 15* 20kW rather than 2* 150kW
- Charging by time occupied
Almost every car can easily do DC charging at 20kW and if slower it is likely because EV is above 90%, then they should not be there as these are not for them.
- Max time of 2 hours before financial penalty.
This encourages movement of EV by its owner
- Enforcement using Alpha Power system.
Enforces the above and stops ICEing issues

This is not the case for service stations, at those places you need 150kW/350kW charging to get on your way quickly, but at shopping centres or Toby carveries you need the above situation. The time charging works because it encourage movement of the EV if you are not getting 20kW rate, which is the case for cars that are above 90-95%. Also, most car manufacturer recommend against continuous rapid/fast charging of high kW rates due to the affect it has on the chemistry of the batteries. So at 20kW the affect is almost the same as AC charging but it cuts out the conversion at the car unit and allows far more efficient converters at the charging station, i.e. 1 at the 15* 20kW charging bays.
Last edited by fa147 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Captain.Plummet
Posts: 435
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:01 am

fa147 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:49 am
Captain.Plummet wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:31 am
More chargers are better than none, but mixing single charging bays with alcohol vendors is a recipe for trouble. Imagine going into a Toby carvery to ask the family who have ICEd the charging bay to leave their Sunday roast and move their car, especially if the car park is otherwise full.
Disputes over a ICEing at a single charge point at my Mum’s care home have led to two stand up arguments, leading to the charger being switched off by the management.
And the way to resolve that.... which by the way you were against when I mentioned it previously... financial penalties. There is a set max time of 2 hours and then you have to pay over the odd for staying. This results in responsibilities being observed because no one wants to be (financially) penalised, so they abide by the rules set.

This is why every type of parking system in the world comes with a penalty if you over park, it forces the individual to take responsibility of their own actions.

So in summary & my view:
- DC charging (so that all cars can benefit) of rates up 20 kW
- Far more “bays” per location
This is due to lower max DC output. eg 5* 20kW rather than 1* 100kW or 15* 20kW rather than 2* 150kW
- Charging by time occupied
Almost every car can easily do DC charging at 20kW and if slower it is likely because EV is above 90%, then they should not be there as these are not for them.
- Max time of 2 hours before financial penalty.
This encourages movement of EV by its owner
- Enforcement using Alpha Power system.
Enforces the above and stops ICEing issues
Charging bays are not parking systems, which is the gaping flaw in your argument. Parking bays might however have charging points, which is a very different thing. It makes no sense to put a rapid charger in a Toby car park. The only reason it is there is because there is power available, the stakeholders think they are projecting an environmental image and BP are trying to extend their EV coverage as fast as possible with minimum costs. The Toby charger might charge one car over a lunch service, but what happens when there are to or three, or passing EV drivers wishing to use it. Next it will be limited access or customers only, with a combination of overstay charges, fines and enforcement officers.
You are fixated on your idea for 20kW DC charging, but that isn't ever going to happen. It is as expensive to install a 20kW DC charger as it is to install a 50kW unit, but it's way cheaper to install eight 7kW outlets, which is what you want in a long stay car park.
50/100kW charging for drive-through forecourts and lots of 7kW chargers in car parks would solve most of the problems and suit the vast majority of EV drivers.

oop north
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by oop north » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:35 am

One has just been installed at a pub in the north Preston suburb of Fulwood (well, sherwood is a bit of a subset of fulwood) - within days of the instavolt chargers at Booths being commissioned about half a mile away.

I cannot imagine using any of them - I live too close to pay anything more than 15p per kWh - but on a day trip to Keswick (90 miles away) I will use the instavolt at booths Keswick to give me 10 kWh or so to give a safety margin to get home on a cold day

They are going in at supermarkets and pubs because those locations have public parking, and a public parking space is a must to be able to charge a car. So the chargers go where there is space - in fulwood booths and the pub are in residential areas so they can be used by residents (though they pretty much all have off-road parking there) or visitors to the hospital or people shopping / having lunch / dinner

If a care home has turned off the chargers it’s because they cannot be bothered to find a solution to a problem - it’s no good saying you cannot put chargers in places like that, you have to find a solution to the problems
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OneR
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by OneR » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:36 am

Yep, sounds like you are agreeing and what fa147 is suggesting, more chargers at an appropriate rate rather than less Rapid chargers. Maybe a good compromise is the new rapid chargers that allow multiple connections to share the one device.
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Captain.Plummet
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm

oop north wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:35 am
One has just been installed at a pub in the north Preston suburb of Fulwood (well, sherwood is a bit of a subset of fulwood) - within days of the instavolt chargers at Booths being commissioned about half a mile away.

I cannot imagine using any of them - I live too close to pay anything more than 15p per kWh - but on a day trip to Keswick (90 miles away) I will use the instavolt at booths Keswick to give me 10 kWh or so to give a safety margin to get home on a cold day

They are going in at supermarkets and pubs because those locations have public parking, and a public parking space is a must to be able to charge a car. So the chargers go where there is space - in fulwood booths and the pub are in residential areas so they can be used by residents (though they pretty much all have off-road parking there) or visitors to the hospital or people shopping / having lunch / dinner

If a care home has turned off the chargers it’s because they cannot be bothered to find a solution to a problem - it’s no good saying you cannot put chargers in places like that, you have to find a solution to the problems
The OAP care home turned off the charger because they did not want to deal with the arguments that were happening between fossil drivers (no pun intended) parking in the charging bay and visitors wanting to charge their car.

I reiterate, car parks are places where EV charging should be available, but should not be exclusive. If we start with the premise that fossil cars are excluded from parking spaces where there is a charging point there will always be conflict. If that problem is addressed using penalties and enforcement the situation will just get worse, more so as the number of charging bays increases.

Ultimately it would be better if every parking bay had a charging point and any type of car could park in it. That might sound ridiculous, but for 7kW points the amount of power required would not be great at the moment as there are not so many EV's on the road. If the outlet infrastructure was there the external power supply could be upgraded as the market grew. There may be other ways of managing the charge to each outlet based upon time parked in the bay, state of charge etc.

It's going to need lateral thinking to solve this problem and I do not see single chargers in pub car parks being a milestone solution.

oop north
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by oop north » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:49 pm

But if you start with the premise that parking takes precedence then there will be just the same conflict that EVs will be ice’d
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Captain.Plummet
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by Captain.Plummet » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:57 pm

oop north wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:49 pm
But if you start with the premise that parking takes precedence then there will be just the same conflict that EVs will be ice’d
That is the only way forward, because parking has to take precedence. How on earth are car parks going to gradually move from predominantly ICE vehicles to predominantly EVs in the next ten years or so? Are they going to transfer ICE bays to charging bays based on some national ownership statistic? How will that work in localities where the mix is different?

It's understandable that EV owners think in terms of EV priority, but that is completely unrealistic.

oop north
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by oop north » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:48 pm

When there are lots of charging places then yes. But with a minority of charging places then no
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TeslaDriver
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Re: Polar/BP Chargemaster Email: Latest Install and News

Post by TeslaDriver » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:31 am
Disputes over a ICEing at a single charge point at my Mum’s care home have led to two stand up arguments, leading to the charger being switched off by the management.
Obviously I don't know any background (how much power they have available, how convenient to get it to the parking bays etc.) but if they have only put in one charging socket I think the fault lies with the management and feels to me like all they are doing is "paying lip service" to EVs.

Cost of putting in one charging bay (unless mitigating circumstances) compared to a dozen is just plain stupid, better to do nothing and sit and wait until more sure.

We have done something like 50% of the car park at work (mine is the only EV so far, but people are talking about it ...). Whilst we were at it we did as much as we expect to need for a good many years. And government footed 50% of the bill, and I expect if we had installed only one it probably would have cost us close to 50% of what we actually paid - by the time contractor had got people on site and "run a cable".

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