ICEing

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TeslaDriver
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Re: ICEing

Post by TeslaDriver » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:06 pm

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:49 pm
I do not believe that company ICE cars are tax deductible as asset purchases.
OK, on that basis my assumption is wrong, thanks.
Chewy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:29 pm
Why should low paid earners pay tax so someone can get £3,500 off their £70,000 car? It makes no sense to me.
I agree with the sentiment, but if the nation decides it needs to have EVs, and they are currently expensive, and we want early adopters, and there are benefits (reduce cost of cleaning up pollution / NHS bills etc.) then we have to incentivise people to buy them.

You don't have to give people money, you could incentivise them some other way, but its going to consume tax payers money.

It won't be low earner's tax, they don't pay enough and its being used for something else already ... so it will be the tax from the higher earners, who are the ones actually buying the cars. Discuss :)
scm wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:53 pm
Of course, a decade ago government policy was to have diesels as the dominant mode of transport - didn't that end well?
Gordon Brown hoodwinked by German auto? Discuss :)


fa147
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Re: ICEing

Post by fa147 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:17 pm

TeslaDriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:06 pm
Chewy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:29 pm
Why should low paid earners pay tax so someone can get £3,500 off their £70,000 car? It makes no sense to me.
I agree with the sentiment, but if the nation decides it needs to have EVs, and they are currently expensive, and we want early adopters, and there are benefits (reduce cost of cleaning up pollution / NHS bills etc.) then we have to incentivise people to buy them.
Perhaps if you knew/appreciated how much big oil is subsidised, you might not be so worried about subsidising EV adoption in anyway possible.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... commission

We should be doing what Germany is doing with their priorities of subsidies for oil vs renewable.
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Goshdarnit
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Re: ICEing

Post by Goshdarnit » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:30 pm

In some ways I think it’s almost more important to incentivise the wealthy to buy EVs. They are the ones buying Bentleys and (petrol) Porsches which pollute at a much higher level than a 1 litre VW Golf. We need everyone to go greener if the whole thing is to work, including the rich. The wealthy get wealthy by being canny shoppers and not throwing money away so the incentives to bring an EV closer to a petrol price (plus the simple psychology of a “bargain”) can be extremely powerful in convincing anyone (rich or poor) to go green. It has to be about getting everyone out of fossil vehicles, not just the poor or the rich. I think the incentives help at all points in the market. And as others have pointed out, encouraging wealthy people to buy BEVs widens adoption, increases production and reduces costs for all. Plus the fact that it puts more second hand BEVs on the market in a few years.

I think we need to avoid looking at it as “giving the rich £3,500 off a car” and just see it as incentivising everyone.

PS I still think it’s ridiculous that a Nissan Leaf can qualify for Luxury Car Tax.
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Chewy
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Re: ICEing

Post by Chewy » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am

Sorry got to disagree on the £3,500 rebate for the wealthy.

If you can afford to pay £70,000 for a car you don’t need incentives that take money away from those that need it.

30,000 Porsche Taycan orders at over £100,000 each would still have been placed without any incentive. Hundreds of thousands of small diesels off the road will make a difference. Drop the incentive for those above £30,000k and pro-rata the incentive below there to get more people to buy EVs.
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Goshdarnit
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Re: ICEing

Post by Goshdarnit » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:16 am

Chewy wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am
Sorry got to disagree on the £3,500 rebate for the wealthy.

If you can afford to pay £70,000 for a car you don’t need incentives that take money away from those that need it.

30,000 Porsche Taycan orders at over £100,000 each would still have been placed without any incentive. Hundreds of thousands of small diesels off the road will make a difference. Drop the incentive for those above £30,000k and pro-rata the incentive below there to get more people to buy EVs.
I really do disagree. Value for money matters no matter how much you have. In my case for example, the £4,500 grant cut my I-Pace to about £3,000 more than the Audi RS5 I was considering. £3,000 more is easy to justify. £7,500 more is quite a difference. I personally was so determined to go BEV that I would probably still have bought the I-Pace. But for a lot of people it becomes a lot harder to justify. Not everyone is so committed and will at the end of the day make a value judgment. The grant is about enticing people into EVs and trying to get EVERYONE to choose them. The incentive needs to be there for everyone to bring prices closer to parity. If you got rid of the grant for all Tesla cars I would strongly suggest their sales would tank. At the prices you’re talking about not a single Tesla would qualify. Many people are really stretching themselves to go green and that grant makes a difference to those people.

Also, how would you calculate a pro-rata reallocation? How many BEVs will sell this year? How many will be luxury BEVs? Divide one by the other and even if you could magically know the numbers it ends up being tiny because you’re dividing a small number by a big one. It’s similar to the argument about dividing CEO pay rises amongst the staff. For one man it’s a lot. But divided between everyone else it’s about £10 a month. Yes there may be 30,000 reservations for the Taycan but unless they’re all from the U.K. that has zero bearing on the U.K. grant.

But then, you bought an ICE so what do you know anyway? :D:D:D
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SammyD
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Re: ICEing

Post by SammyD » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:06 am

Chewy wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am
Sorry got to disagree on the £3,500 rebate for the wealthy.
ROFL

Thanks for saying that I'm wealthy. Brightened up my day no end.
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Chewy
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Re: ICEing

Post by Chewy » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:55 am

SammyD wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:06 am
Chewy wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am
Sorry got to disagree on the £3,500 rebate for the wealthy.
ROFL

Thanks for saying that I'm wealthy. Brightened up my day no end.
My first pay packet (that ages me) contained £4 17s 11p (September 1969).
Yet you think being given £3,500 to buy a £70,000 car is good use of the limited public funds. Parents have to struggle to feed their children during school holidays. Have to choose to pay the rent or feed themselves.

I am afraid It looks like I am in disagreement with everyone on here :-(
Last edited by Chewy on Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chewy
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Re: ICEing

Post by Chewy » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:09 am

Goshdarnit wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:16 am
Chewy wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am
Sorry got to disagree on the £3,500 rebate for the wealthy.

If you can afford to pay £70,000 for a car you don’t need incentives that take money away from those that need it.

30,000 Porsche Taycan orders at over £100,000 each would still have been placed without any incentive. Hundreds of thousands of small diesels off the road will make a difference. Drop the incentive for those above £30,000k and pro-rata the incentive below there to get more people to buy EVs.
I really do disagree. Value for money matters no matter how much you have. In my case for example, the £4,500 grant cut my I-Pace to about £3,000 more than the Audi RS5 I was considering. £3,000 more is easy to justify. £7,500 more is quite a difference. I personally was so determined to go BEV that I would probably still have bought the I-Pace. But for a lot of people it becomes a lot harder to justify. Not everyone is so committed and will at the end of the day make a value judgment. The grant is about enticing people into EVs and trying to get EVERYONE to choose them. The incentive needs to be there for everyone to bring prices closer to parity. If you got rid of the grant for all Tesla cars I would strongly suggest their sales would tank. At the prices you’re talking about not a single Tesla would qualify. Many people are really stretching themselves to go green and that grant makes a difference to those people.

Also, how would you calculate a pro-rata reallocation? How many BEVs will sell this year? How many will be luxury BEVs? Divide one by the other and even if you could magically know the numbers it ends up being tiny because you’re dividing a small number by a big one. It’s similar to the argument about dividing CEO pay rises amongst the staff. For one man it’s a lot. But divided between everyone else it’s about £10 a month. Yes there may be 30,000 reservations for the Taycan but unless they’re all from the U.K. that has zero bearing on the U.K. grant.

But then, you bought an ICE so what do you know anyway? :D:D:D
So your choice was between a £60,000 car and £70,000 car - what a laugh. Then don’t buy the car - buy one YOU can afford. There is much better use that the £3,500 given to those that can drive around in £70,000 cars can be put to. If you just wanted an EV then buy a second hand EV that you can afford.

Even one person in the UK getting a grant for a Taycan is a crime.

Yes, some incentives, but not for those really expensive cars and not as much either.

And you think an extra £10 a month is not going to make a difference to low paid workers? Clearly you live in a different world to me.

I guess I am alone on this one.

Oh and I bought an ICE, what has that to do with anything?

I have purchased two new EVs in my time, including the I-Pace. I don’t shout about it, but with both the Leaf and I-Pace I donated the full amount of the rebates to a local children’s charity.

The four other EVs I have owned were as used cars, so no rebate was given. No need to lecture me on buying an ICE car.

You all have to really get your heads around the fact that giving someone £3,500 to buy a £70,000 car, makes no difference if it is ICE or EV, is just plain and simple wrong.
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anupanu
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Re: ICEing

Post by anupanu » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am

How about turning the process around and taxing even more (£3.5k ICE tax) the ICE cars of a certain value (arbitarily £50k), you would still have your choice to make between RS5 and I Pace and the difference would still be £3k, but the £3.5k subsidy on lower cost EVs would be more sustainable


Captain.Plummet
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Re: ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:20 am

anupanu wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am
How about turning the process around and taxing even more (£3.5k ICE tax) the ICE cars of a certain value (arbitarily £50k), you would still have your choice to make between RS5 and I Pace and the difference would still be £3k, but the £3.5k subsidy on lower cost EVs would be more sustainable
I think the rebates are more about how the car industry works rather than favouring the wealthy. Car manufacturers make disproportionately greater profit on an expensive vehicle than a cheap one and they need that revenue to fund development of the new technology. Cheaper vehicles sell in much greater quantity, however they wouldn't be developed without funding from top of the market sales.
Manufacturers need a spread of models from cheap to expensive otherwise they are vulnerable to changes in the market, just as Jaguar have been with falling sales of premium vehicles in Asia. Jaguar have not sold a mass market car as yet but they will do that once their EV technology is fully developed.

What the government have done with grants and tax benefits is to stimulate sales of high end EVs to enable manufacturers to pay for R&D. The payback will come in the next five years or so when cost effective EVs abound. This also fits the problems around EV take-up. Early adopters are the ones who are prepared to accept the challenges of EV range and charging on a limited network. Many new purchasers (not all) of cheaper EV's, as they become available, are not going to be so ready to plan journeys. They are going to want charging on demand. If lots of cheap EV's appeared on our roads now there would be charging chaos.
Last edited by Captain.Plummet on Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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