ICEing

All Jaguar I-Pace related discussions
Post Reply
Captain.Plummet
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:20 am

ICEing seems to be getting worse. The BBC multi-storey at Media City has eight charging bays but they are generally blocked by fossil cars. These are mostly larger Mercedes, BMW and Audi’s, so it seems there might be an ‘entitlement to ground floor parking’ issue on the part of senior management. So much for BBC sustainability. Our local ASDA has several charging posts but they are never accessible for the same reason. I even called at Warwick services northbound late one night and found a van parked sideways across the two Ecotricity pumps, blocking both bays. Fortunately I managed to stop the driver as he walked off to his hotel.
On a recent trip to Italy the hotel used barriers to prevent unauthorised access to the Tesla bays which I thought was an excellent idea. Perhaps a rising post or simple barrier to stop people parking in charge bays that opened when an RFID card was presented to the pump would solve the issue.


fa147
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:25 pm
Location: London / United Kingdom

Re: ICEing

Post by fa147 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:35 pm

Unfortunately, and on the whole, appealing to the general public's sense of fairness and compassion is of very little use. The individual, maybe, but the general public, nope.

Therefore, the only alternatively is penalty, and the only form of legal penalty is financial penalty and at present there is very little financial penalty for those that are careless.

Added to that is also the perception that at present EV owners tend to be affluent or (dare I say it) enlightened people and so there is some resentment against them.

However, I bet when ICE cars first came to prominence, horse drawn carriage users were always parking in the ICE bays :-)
I-Pace MY20 HSE, Corris Grey, Ebony/Ebony Interior, 20” Grey & Diamond Turned, Panoramic Roof
IMC: S19B_35.5-418001 | Telematics: 16.2 | Map 8.30.100.153


User avatar
malakai
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:38 am
Location: United States

Re: ICEing

Post by malakai » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:49 pm

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:20 am
[...] so, it seems there might be an ‘entitlement to ground floor parking’ issue on the part of senior management.
Given the placement of most chargers, it would be easy for an ice car driver to assume there's an entitlement to ground floor, front and center parking on the part of every EV owner. Its not like these EV owners are all physically disabled and have a real need to have reserved parking close to the building. And its not like we see a lot of rusty old beater EV's either. Look at it from an ICE driver's point of view- these EV drivers are obviously wealthy enough to afford fancy brand new cars, and these rich people get the best choice of parking too, whether they are using the charger or not. Does that seem right?

I'm on the building and planning commission for my local government here in the US. We write land use and building ordinances, and review new construction. We have laws in the books that outline the specific requirements and limitations for newly constructed parking lots. For example, laws that require the placement of disabled spaces, and the construction of proper drainage and electrical lighting utilities. We don't have any ordinances right now that require the addition of EV charging infrastructure- but I anticipate that we may want to think about adding some soon.

While it is true that some places choose to put the charger spots up front because they want to be seen as 'green', and they really do want to reward EV drivers, there is often a more practical reason why the chargers get put up front. It's because they are being retro-fit into the parking lot, and the cost of tearing up the existing surface to run an underground 100 amp service is directly related to distance. It simply costs a lot more to retrofit a charger into the back of an existing lot than to have it installed up front where the electrical service is. In new construction, that's not the case. It's only marginally more expensive to run a little extra copper out into the lot for a charger when the required lighting is being installed.

Now with my planning hat on, I have a question for you, and it doesn't matter where in the world you live to answer it:

If you were going to require that every new or reconstructed parking lot included a few EV charging spots, and you were able to standardize on where they were located, where would you choose to put them, and why?

Should they always be near the main entrance to the building? Should the EV spots be placed on the outskirts of the lot first, to keep down the cost of adding more spots later? Should they all be located on a single floor of a multi-level garage, or should every level be required to have at least one charging spot? Should they be located next to the disabled spots, so that the 'restricted parking' type spots are in one location? Should third-party for profit EV spots even be allowed everywhere? (A developer, at least in Michigan, can't just build and open gas station in a residential district. Should he be allowed to put up a charging business in an apartment complex parking lot?)

I look forward to reading your thoughts!
😸 ⚡ 2019 I-Pace HSE EV400 / Silicon Silver, Black / Siena Tan, Ebony, Oyster / 20" 5068's
🇺🇸 ✋ Detroit Michigan


Captain.Plummet
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:58 pm

malakai wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:49 pm
Captain.Plummet wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:20 am
[...] so, it seems there might be an ‘entitlement to ground floor parking’ issue on the part of senior management.

Now with my planning hat on, I have a question for you, and it doesn't matter where in the world you live to answer it:

If you were going to require that every new or reconstructed parking lot included a few EV charging spots, and you were able to standardize on where they were located, where would you choose to put them, and why?

Should they always be near the main entrance to the building? Should the EV spots be placed on the outskirts of the lot first, to keep down the cost of adding more spots later? Should they all be located on a single floor of a multi-level garage, or should every level be required to have at least one charging spot? Should they be located next to the disabled spots, so that the 'restricted parking' type spots are in one location? Should third-party for profit EV spots even be allowed everywhere? (A developer, at least in Michigan, can't just build and open gas station in a residential district. Should he be allowed to put up a charging business in an apartment complex parking lot?)

I look forward to reading your thoughts!
The answer is simple really. Don't put rapid chargers in car parks. It makes no sense whatsoever. Car parks are used for either short stay (shopping trips etc) which are short distances from home during which charging is unnecessary, or longer stay where a rapid charger is a pain because it would be necessary to return to the vehicle after 90 minutes to move it off the pump. In the latter case a 7kWH charge point is enough to deliver 160 miles or so during a business day. Put as many 7kWH bays in as you can and put them on the upper floors, leaving the ground floor for short stay customers.


Captain.Plummet
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:06 pm

fa147 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:35 pm
Unfortunately, and on the whole, appealing to the general public's sense of fairness and compassion is of very little use. The individual, maybe, but the general public, nope.

Therefore, the only alternatively is penalty, and the only form of legal penalty is financial penalty and at present there is very little financial penalty for those that are careless.

Added to that is also the perception that at present EV owners tend to be affluent or (dare I say it) enlightened people and so there is some resentment against them.

However, I bet when ICE cars first came to prominence, horse drawn carriage users were always parking in the ICE bays :-)
Penalties are not the solution, as are most reactive management methods . It just leads to resentment and enforcement costs that will increase the cost of charging. Third party charging suppliers have been forced into car parks and hotels because Tesla and Ecotricity have the monopoly on main route charging locations. Ionity are putting that right but it will take time to build the network. The best solution is low power destination chargers in car parks, hotels and the like and rapid chargers on proper forecourts easily accessible from trunk routes. Forecourts don't need parking controls as no-one would park a fossil car in them but there needs to be a barrier mechanism for charging bays in car parks.


TeslaDriver
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: ICEing

Post by TeslaDriver » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 am

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:20 am
ICEing seems to be getting worse.
A subject long discussed on Tesla forums. Let their tyres down ... Flyer-under-windscreen ... double-park them with an extension cable ... photo with number-plate and name-and-shame ... help yourself :)


Captain.Plummet
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:55 pm

TeslaDriver wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 am
Captain.Plummet wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:20 am
ICEing seems to be getting worse.
A subject long discussed on Tesla forums. Let their tyres down ... Flyer-under-windscreen ... double-park them with an extension cable ... photo with number-plate and name-and-shame ... help yourself :)
None of that is going to help. The solution is in the hands of the suppliers. A bit more thought and they could have an accessory that obstructed the bay for anyone without an account. Even a simple manually operated arm that swung down from the pump to make the bay unusable that would lock in the down position and unlock to be lifted to the vertical only when the pump was activated.


fa147
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:25 pm
Location: London / United Kingdom

Re: ICEing

Post by fa147 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:14 pm

Barrier mechanisms = More to break and go wrong = no charging
Parking bays away from the main entrance/parking locations = it costs more to put charging bays further away from the main buildings, more digging, more piping etc.
Many more destination based bays so that ICEing can't happen = Cost versus reward, plus no guarantee that it still wouldn't be ICEd
Avoiding entitlement parking locations = Ignorance and arrogance can't be avoided and why should it be.

I'm sorry to say it but if the above worked, then it would be used in towns and cities across the work where parking is a premium or where there should be no parking. The reason penalties are applied, it enforces correctly agreed behaviour and discourages bad. Also, if done correctly and not subject to corruption, then revenue generated from penalties can go toward more EV bays and charging locations.
I-Pace MY20 HSE, Corris Grey, Ebony/Ebony Interior, 20” Grey & Diamond Turned, Panoramic Roof
IMC: S19B_35.5-418001 | Telematics: 16.2 | Map 8.30.100.153


Captain.Plummet
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: ICEing

Post by Captain.Plummet » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:48 pm

fa147 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:14 pm
Barrier mechanisms = More to break and go wrong = no charging
Parking bays away from the main entrance/parking locations = it costs more to put charging bays further away from the main buildings, more digging, more piping etc.
Many more destination based bays so that ICEing can't happen = Cost versus reward, plus no guarantee that it still wouldn't be ICEd
Avoiding entitlement parking locations = Ignorance and arrogance can't be avoided and why should it be.

I'm sorry to say it but if the above worked, then it would be used in towns and cities across the work where parking is a premium or where there should be no parking. The reason penalties are applied, it enforces correctly agreed behaviour and discourages bad. Also, if done correctly and not subject to corruption, then revenue generated from penalties can go toward more EV bays and charging locations.
Enforcement costs money and is only useful when it happens. Able bodied drivers, often tradesmen, park in disabled bays all the time but nothing is done about it.

We have a conflict between parking and fuelling. No-one parks on a fuel forecourt so why should we fuel in an exclusive parking bay? I agree that lots of 7kWh charger bays are needed, especially as eight bays can replace one rapid charger, but there does need to be a mechanism for preventing ICEing. A manual barrier would not break except under extreme abuse and would be relatively cheap to implement. It’s much more effective than penalty threats. How about a charging compound with a single barrier opened using the RFID card?


SammyD
Posts: 705
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:44 pm
Location: N.E Hampshire, UK

Re: ICEing

Post by SammyD » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:05 pm

Captain.Plummet wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:48 pm
How about a charging compound with a single barrier opened using the RFID card?
This is just adding more complication to the often already complex operation of charging an EV.

I'd just opt for a single place to send photos of vehicles ICEing Charging points and those drivers would get a hefty fine for their troubles.
We all have phones with cameras these days so we just need to use the available technology and after a bit, the problem will stop.
The same goes for Builders Vans parking in Disabled/Mother & Child spots early in the morning. They will often leave their diesel engines idling as well. The car parks are empty at this time so it is just lazyness.
Driving "Hirundo Rustica" since 15th Mar 2019. Lovely Jubbly :D :D
S19B_* Maps : whatever is current.


Post Reply

Return to “Main Jaguar I-Pace chat”