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What is the status of 100kW charging?

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#1 ·
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about 100kW charging, but it's difficult to know what the current (!) status is; and you can't search for "100 kW"...

As far as I am aware from reading lots of posts over the last few months, it seems that many of you have charged at around 80kW, but there is some sort of limit of 200A, but I'm not clear whether this is a limit of the car or the charger. Much talk of software updates promising 100kW charging. Mention of needing water-cooled cables on the charger. And lots of talk of problems with chargers generally.

There was a video posted recently (which I can no longer find) showing someone getting 97kW from a Honda charger - but it seemed to taper off very rapidly to c80kW at c25% SoC (all these figures from memory).

So, my question to current owners who have access to super-rapid chargers which should be capable of 100kW or more, is:

"What sustained charging rate can you routinely achieve, between, say 20% and 70% SoC?" Or, perhaps more usefully, how fast have you managed to recharge from 20% to 80% SoC?

By the nature of these forums, there are more posts reporting problems than successes. So please don't use this thread to report specific issues such as cutting out after a few minutes or being unable to charge at more than 30kW. I'm trying to establish what is routinely possible when everything is working as it should.
 
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#77 ·
FENorway said:
Noone who's doing a roadtrip this weekend and trying to get 100kw?
Already did a road trip last night, see post in >100kw along A3 topic. Max speed was 82kW with speed reducing just before 50% SoC. I have car software 15.2 (installed 3 weeks ago). Tried HPC at Ionity and Innogy.
 
#80 ·
Chewy said:
MartijnEV said:
They do but there seems to be an issue with the CCS2 protocol that has lead to multiple different interpretations of how data messages between car and charger have to be defined. They are fixing this at the moment.
It seems that Audi and Tesla have understood the CCS2 protocol specs right from the start, while Jaguar and ABB didn't and now have to do some fixes.
I am confident that should Jaguar have had a discussion with Tesla engineers they would have explained how things work.

Tesla has now released ALL its patents, there should be no secrets.
Tesla did not start working on CCS compatibility until after >100kW charging was available. Ditto for Audi. Nobody has used Tesla patents that I know of, and I've done work at the eng'g level for Tesla and others. Perhaps the Chinese will?

Tesla does not want CCS infrastructure because it will compete with their network. While Tesla made a CHAdeMO adapter, they deliberately avoided making a CCS adapter or that would encourage DCFC companies to expand their networks faster. CHAdeMO was necessary because it was the biggest network since the Leaf came out 2011, well before Tesla Superchargers.
 
#81 ·
:twisted:
McRat said:
Chewy said:
MartijnEV said:
They do but there seems to be an issue with the CCS2 protocol that has lead to multiple different interpretations of how data messages between car and charger have to be defined. They are fixing this at the moment.
It seems that Audi and Tesla have understood the CCS2 protocol specs right from the start, while Jaguar and ABB didn't and now have to do some fixes.
I am confident that should Jaguar have had a discussion with Tesla engineers they would have explained how things work.

Tesla has now released ALL its patents, there should be no secrets.
Tesla did not start working on CCS compatibility until after >100kW charging was available. Ditto for Audi. Nobody has used Tesla patents that I know of, and I've done work at the eng'g level for Tesla and others. Perhaps the Chinese will?

Tesla does not want CCS infrastructure because it will compete with their network. While Tesla made a CHAdeMO adapter, they deliberately avoided making a CCS adapter or that would encourage DCFC companies to expand their networks faster. CHAdeMO was necessary because it was the biggest network since the Leaf came out 2011, well before Tesla Superchargers.
Um, I think you will find that Tesla are in the process of updating all their chargers to provide CCS charging to cater for the M3 in Europe.
 
#82 ·
Jelle v/d Meer said:
FENorway said:
Noone who's doing a roadtrip this weekend and trying to get 100kw?
Already did a road trip last night, see post in >100kw along A3 topic. Max speed was 82kW with speed reducing just before 50% SoC. I have car software 15.2 (installed 3 weeks ago). Tried HPC at Ionity and Innogy.
Didn't someone post that they had 80kw until more than 80% SoC?
 
#83 ·
Chewy said:
:twisted:
McRat said:
Chewy said:
I am confident that should Jaguar have had a discussion with Tesla engineers they would have explained how things work.

Tesla has now released ALL its patents, there should be no secrets.
Tesla did not start working on CCS compatibility until after >100kW charging was available. Ditto for Audi. Nobody has used Tesla patents that I know of, and I've done work at the eng'g level for Tesla and others. Perhaps the Chinese will?

Tesla does not want CCS infrastructure because it will compete with their network. While Tesla made a CHAdeMO adapter, they deliberately avoided making a CCS adapter or that would encourage DCFC companies to expand their networks faster. CHAdeMO was necessary because it was the biggest network since the Leaf came out 2011, well before Tesla Superchargers.
Um, I think you will find that Tesla are in the process of updating all their chargers to provide CCS charging to cater for the M3.
IIRC, there was no such animal as a CCS retail Tesla in Feb 2019, only prototypes. Euro laws are forcing the issue after Tesla lost their appeal. There might not ever be a CCS Tesla in the US where CCS locations wildly outnumber SC stations, especially in urban areas. It's like 10:1. There is no adapter which is the cheapest method.

The goal was for Tesla to 'own' the EV market in the US completely, hence why they advertised an EV at a lower price ($35,000) when the first competitor appeared at $37,500. The idea was to slow sales of competing 200+ mile EVs until Tesla could actually produce a cheap EV.

Ditto for CCS, and failure support a common specification. Heck, it requires an adapter to use J1772 even today. J1772 L2's are everywhere.

They almost delayed progress on autonomous cars by claiming they were autonomous years ago and jury-rigging a test video and posting it everywhere. "Just awaiting regulatory approval" Nov 2016.

But back to 100 kW CCS.

What did Tesla do when the CCS committee spec'd out a 350kW configuration? Did Tesla, who was on the committee for research purposes. say "We support the CCS 350kW spec and will now be globally compatible"? No. They boasted that their 'new Super-Superchargers' will make 350 kW chargers look like children's toys.

Many people have the impression that Tesla's actual goal is what Elon Musk stated, "To promote all brands of EVs". No, his goal is to make Tesla the largest automaker in the world, and do or say anything to achieve that goal. And that includes hampering other EV makers.

What did Tesla do when the Jaguar I-Pace became the fastest true production EV with Randy Pobst at the wheel? They hired Pobst, then modified a Model 3 to give it a good whipping a month later. You cannot buy the Pobst Tesla. It's a one of a kind.

I admire Elon's vision of the future, but don't mistake him for Mother Theresa. He even sued Top Gear when they said something bad about the Tesla. That's Musk, not the 'save the planet' guy folk imagine. TSLA stock price is more important to him than CO2 levels. as well it should be. His image is portrayed a bit more altruistic than his actions indicate.
 
#84 ·
McRat said:
IIRC, there was no such animal as a CCS retail Tesla in Feb 2019, only prototypes. Euro laws are forcing the issue after Tesla lost their appeal. There might not ever be a CCS Tesla in the US where CCS locations wildly outnumber SC stations, especially in urban areas. It's like 10:1. There is no adapter which is the cheapest method.
AFAIK, all those Model 3's that are currently 'invading' Europe are CCS only.
 
#85 ·
SammyD said:
McRat said:
IIRC, there was no such animal as a CCS retail Tesla in Feb 2019, only prototypes. Euro laws are forcing the issue after Tesla lost their appeal. There might not ever be a CCS Tesla in the US where CCS locations wildly outnumber SC stations, especially in urban areas. It's like 10:1. There is no adapter which is the cheapest method.
AFAIK, all those Model 3's that are currently 'invading' Europe are CCS only.
All European M3 EVs are using CCS, this includes the M3 on demonstration at Cribbs In Bristol. We have the EU to thank for this.

The US market is probably completely different and indeed Tesla owners are "locked in" to Tesla chargers and the associated costs the Tesla will be imposing upon them.
 
#86 ·
What I do not understand is that EU forced Tesla to have CCS capability but didn't force Tesla to open their supercharger network.

The current situation is BRILLIANT for M3 owners as they can charge EVERYWHERE but are an absolute nightmare for other CCS EV owners. There will be many M3 on the road and guaranteed we will run into situation that you arrive at a Ionity station and all chargers are occupied by M3 despite there being a Supercharger network a few miles down the road.

The EU should have forced Tesla to open the Supercharger network - effectively Tesla is discriminating other EV's. Elon Musk saying he is happy to open it up when other car makers pay for it is also ridiculous as Tesla cars are also using public chargers and Ionity, Allego etc chargers without Tesla paying those providers. Those providers charge the user of the charge station not the car manufacturer. Tesla should simply set a rate per minute or kWh which should cover their cost of infrastructure/maintenance.

Can you imagine if Shell makes an exclusive deal with VW that only VW cars can fuel at Shell stations. Or French toll company only allowing French cars on the toll roads.
 
G
#88 ·
The CCS chargers are 'public' networks, the Tesla network is 'private'. The EU may be able to legislate to limit Tesla's ability to further expand their private network, but they are not able to force 'opening' of an already invested private network to the public, nor should they be.
 
#89 ·
FENorway said:
Jelle v/d Meer said:
FENorway said:
Noone who's doing a roadtrip this weekend and trying to get 100kw?
Already did a road trip last night, see post in >100kw along A3 topic. Max speed was 82kW with speed reducing just before 50% SoC. I have car software 15.2 (installed 3 weeks ago). Tried HPC at Ionity and Innogy.
Didn't someone post that they had 80kw until more than 80% SoC?
Yes is there anyone else that can confirm the 80kW upto 80%?
 
#90 ·
mjc said:
The CCS chargers are 'public' networks, the Tesla network is 'private'. The EU may be able to legislate to limit Tesla's ability to further expand their private network, but they are not able to force 'opening' of an already invested private network to the public, nor should they be.
why are CCS chargers "public" ?
Surely they are all owned/operated by private companies who could, if they wished, make whatever exclusions they wanted ?

they won't, of course, but I question what you mean by "public" ?
 
#91 ·
Here in Germany at the autobahn there are a least 59 Superchargers in the service area.
This is common ground and paid by the german tax payer. Sure, Tesla had to pay a fee for the
usage. So everyone who pays for something on common ground should be able to use it.

CU

Jens
 
#92 ·
I think some of the comments above are very harsh and unfair on Tesla.

We wouldn't have the i-Pace if Tesla hadn't shown it could be done. Tesla realised that the infrastructure would not develop fast enough if left to others, so made a huge investment in their own network. This was paid for by the early buyers of their cars, who, whether they realised it or not, paid a premium (never quantified but significant) for "free" access to the network. The business model was very successful, as it convinced buyers of Teslas that EVs could do long journeys, and hence convinced the public at large including everyone here.

Jaguar and other European manufacturers followed with their own EVs, but without directly investing in infrastructure. (OK, Ionity is a JV by VAG & others, but not Jaguar.) Part of the reason the I-Pace is so much cheaper than a MS or MX is that we are not paying for access to Superchargers.

Complaining that it is unfair for Tesla owners to also use "public" CCS chargers is a bit like saying that the members of your local golf club shouldn't be allowed to use your local pub - unless you are also allowed to use the facilities of that private club too, without paying a membership fee.
 
#94 ·
emgf said:
Tesla M3 can charge up to 120KW at Ionity chargers
Well Tesla is a company that understands the needs of EV drivers when it comes to range, charging, easy of use etc.
Unlike the dinosaurs of Jaguar that looks surprised and annoyed when you ask "which version of software you installed" or say "yes there are some issues, no worries we will look into solving those somewhere in the future".
 
#95 ·
emgf said:
Tesla M3 can charge up to 120KW at Ionity chargers
Anyone able to interpret this pic as it superficially doesn't add up?

Is the 1h10 the time to 100% SoC allowing for taper of charge? Because 120kW for 1h10 is 140kW-hr and from 32% SoC this would imply a 206kW-hr battery if no taper. I assume therefore that the 1h10 does allow for taper, and quite a lot of it.

Also the 789 kph charge rate implies an energy consumption of 6.6km/kw-hr; I know the M3 is good in that regard, but is it really that good?

Anyway, that's all nit-picking. Bravo to Tesla, and let's hope we at least get to 100kW some time soon.
 
#97 ·
DougTheMac said:
emgf said:
Tesla M3 can charge up to 120KW at Ionity chargers
Also the 789 kph charge rate implies an energy consumption of 6.6km/kw-hr; I know the M3 is good in that regard, but is it really that good?
If you look on the left you will 208Wh/km.

Not quite sure how you related charge rate to consumption rate.

The 208Wh/km - in good conditions these figures are easily achieved with the right M3,.
 
#98 ·
DougTheMac said:
emgf said:
Tesla M3 can charge up to 120KW at Ionity chargers
Anyone able to interpret this pic as it superficially doesn't add up?

Is the 1h10 the time to 100% SoC allowing for taper of charge? Because 120kW for 1h10 is 140kW-hr and from 32% SoC this would imply a 206kW-hr battery if no taper. I assume therefore that the 1h10 does allow for taper, and quite a lot of it.

Also the 789 kph charge rate implies an energy consumption of 6.6km/kw-hr; I know the M3 is good in that regard, but is it really that good?

Anyway, that's all nit-picking. Bravo to Tesla, and let's hope we at least get to 100kW some time soon.
As far as charging is concerned i would say that the Tesla M3 ( performance ) has a WLTP range of about 500km for a battery of 75 KWh, therefore
theoretically a one hour charging at 120 KW gives a range of 120/75 x 500 = 800 km
Besides on the left side of the picture one can see that trip A ( a mix of country roads and motorways ) consumed 18KWh for 88,5 km or 20,8 KWh / 100km
 
#99 ·
DougTheMac said:
emgf said:
Tesla M3 can charge up to 120KW at Ionity chargers
Also the 789 kph charge rate implies an energy consumption of 6.6km/kw-hr; I know the M3 is good in that regard, but is it really that good?
Auto Motor und Sport got 276 km with the LR P.
Pretty cold weather and mixed driving.
From the tests I've seen the M3 decreases range far more than the I-Pace in cold weather.
 
#100 ·
IRace said:
It will only charge to 50% at this rate.
Graph from fastened:
Tesla Model 3 Long Range (2).png
I've done some playing with the data on this graph, to replot it as %SoC vs time, using 75kW-hr as the LR M3 battery capacity.

Because of the steep taper above 47% SoC, the charge time for the "typical" (?) 20% to 80% band is around 33mins, 51mins if you take it up to 90%. The really sweet spot is getting from 20% to 50% in about 11 mins...

Bloody good, but perhaps not as amazingly good as you might at first think. What is the best anyone has achieved for 20% to 80% on the iPace?
 
#101 ·
DougTheMac said:
IRace said:
It will only charge to 50% at this rate.
Graph from fastened:
Tesla Model 3 Long Range (2).png
I've done some playing with the data on this graph, to replot it as %SoC vs time, using 75kW-hr as the LR M3 battery capacity.

Because of the steep taper above 47% SoC, the charge time for the "typical" (?) 20% to 80% band is around 33mins, 51mins if you take it up to 90%. The really sweet spot is getting from 20% to 50% in about 11 mins...

Bloody good, but perhaps not as amazingly good as you might at first think. What is the best anyone has achieved for 20% to 80% on the iPace?
If the new information about charging is correct 20-80% will take 33 mins with an I-Pace. 20-50% 100kw and 50-80% 85kw.
The reported 80kw until 80% SoC will take 37 minutes for 20-80.
 
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